A-23 STS

30 replies [Last post]

Sun, 02/25/2007 - 10:21am

Anonymous

The A-23 STS begins next Saturday, March 3 with our traditional opening ride from Cold Spring to New York City, with a total distance about 70 miles.
This series has no prerequisites other than the ability to ride in a paceline and no requirements to complete a certain number of rides.

The core group is eclectic but all share the desire for challenging rides away from the city. As such, most of our rides require rail transportation to/from starting and ending points and generally require a full day’s commitment. Destinations range as far as the Catskills, the Shawangunks, Connecticut and Pennsylvania. In total there are 15 rides, with the last ride on May 19th. Once per month, there are scheduled rides on both Saturday and Sunday.

Most of the rides are hilly; some are very hilly. Only one stop is usually scheduled; therefore, bringing along adequate water and food is essential. For the most part, one water bottle will not suffice, nor will one power bar, especially on longer rides. Our stops tend to be brief and avoid long sit-down meals. Regarding weather conditions, we tend to be decisive and like to make our calls late in the evening before a ride rather than on the morning of a ride.

Discussion of pace and group dynamics is always difficult, as one person’s tempo is another person “race.” A-23 implies the ability to maintain 23 mph in a flat paceline; however, the speed could be faster with a tailwind or somewhat slower with a strong headwind. We encourage riders to pace themselves smartly over rolling terrain – don’t ride too hard on the upside and don’t coast on the downside. Under such conditions, riders should find themselves frequently shifting over a wide gear range.

Over the past two seasons, our leaders have tried our best to keep the group together – this has proven to be unworkable, especially on the hillier rides. As groups rides tend to break into smaller groups of roughly equal ability, this is the approach we will take and no attempt will be made to keep the group together as a whole over the entire length of a ride. Our routes are painstakingly designed to be easily followed and we typically provide three leaders for each ride to cover a range of abilities.

The complete series is as follows:

3/03/07, Saturday: Cold Spring ->NYC. 70 miles, rolling.

3/10/07, Saturday: Nyack Knot. 75 miles, several climbs in the hills above Nyack.

3/17/07, Saturday: Central Park -> Peekskill -> Brewster. 80 miles, flat-to-rolling with a couple short climbs.

3/24/07, Saturday: New Brunswick, NJ -> Carversville, PA. 85 miles, flat-to-rolling with a couple short climbs.

3/25/07, Sunday: Central Park -> South Mountain Rd -> Central Park. 80 miles, flat-to-rolling with a couple short climbs.

3/31/07, Saturday: Whippoorwill, Roaring Brook, Hardscrabble. 81 miles, flat-to-rolling with a couple short climbs.

4/07/07, Saturday: NYC -> Beacon. 85 miles, hilly.

4/14/07, Saturday: Harriman Hills. 80 miles, very hilly. Start/end Peekskill.

4/15/07, Sunday: Putnam Pleasure. 80 miles, flat-to-rolling with a couple short climbs. Start/end Peekskill.

4/21/07, Saturday: Orange County Tour. 90 miles, several medium climbs and rolling. Start/end Garrison.

4/28/07, Saturday: Putnam Ramble. 97 miles, three medium climbs, several short steep climbs and rolling. Start/end Garrison.

5/05/07, Saturday: Cold Spring -> Beacon -> NYC. 100 miles, one long gradual climb, several short climbs and rolling.

5/06/07, Sunday: Duchess County Tour. 90 miles, rolling. Start/end Beacon.

5/12/07, Saturday: Peekskill -> Cragsmoor -> Beacon. 92 miles, three long climbs, several short climbs and a very rolling return to Beacon.

5/19/07, Saturday: Poughkeepsie -> Peekamoose -> Poughkeepsie. 100 miles, three long c

Sun, 02/25/2007 - 6:15pm

Native (not verified)

Ever considered moving to Putnam or Dutchess?

C'mon, the NY in NYCC means New York City!

It just ain't the same if you're gonna take the train!

Sun, 02/25/2007 - 6:31pm

Robert Shay (not verified)

You're right...it ain't the same

"I've ridden with this group and it is awesome. You can't really safely ""go fast"" for a long time without traffic lights until you get about 20 miles outside of the city. Even over the GWB on 9W there are lights - River Road is a good exception, but there are lights on both ends. Plus, the biggest/longest hills in the local area are up near Bear Mountain. And, the vistas are incredible!"

Sun, 02/25/2007 - 6:54pm

John Z (not verified)

Urban Adventure

"Up until my work schedule changed and did not allow for midweek evening rides, I was the leader of a weekly Wednesday evening group ride called ""Urban Adventure."" Being born in the Bronx, I am quite sure we rode through places you would avoid..."

Tue, 02/27/2007 - 2:51pm

Greg (not verified)

Where do you meet and at what time?

GCT?

Tue, 02/27/2007 - 2:56pm

Greg (not verified)

nevermind

i guess itll just be posted in the ride listings for the upcoming week. see you saturday,.

Tue, 02/27/2007 - 3:25pm

Ron Thomson (not verified)

Meet at Grand Central Terminal around 8:30 AM or so to catch the 8:51 AM train to Cold Spring

Tue, 02/27/2007 - 4:08pm

Story (not verified)

a23 sts

I can ride in a paceline but do so so infrequently the I am having trouble determining if this ride is for me. I solo mph average in CP is 19-20. I need to step up my training for planned races later this summer so would like to give it a go. What do you think from what info I have given U.

Tue, 02/27/2007 - 5:20pm

Hank Schiffman (not verified)

It is essential that you are comfortable riding in a paceline. If not, this isn't the ride for you.

Wed, 02/28/2007 - 8:51am

roadrash (not verified)

I am only human.....

Isn't A23, 80 miles a bit much for this time of year? Do you guys do steroids during the winter or never get off of your windtrainers? I mean c'mon! I am only human, I have a job, winter days are short, and I'm only able to get out on the weekends at this point! How do I prepare for this??

Wed, 02/28/2007 - 10:24am

#10

Ron Thomson (not verified)

I cannot speak for all who participate in this group but i do know that at least a few of us try to keep our fitness levels up during the winter months. This includes indoor training on spin bikes, mountain biking, skiing, running and the occasional road ride when weather permits.

If you only have a limited amount of time to ride per week then it is probably more important to keep a good fitness level over the winter months so you can enjoy more of the season when it comes around.

In my mind at least, there is no such thing as an off season.

Wed, 02/28/2007 - 11:28am

#11

carl (not verified)

off-season

"I agree with Ron. This is one reason I've been leading mtn bike rides in the off-season. A few weekends snowshoeing also keeps me fit. (I actually love doing this stuff, so I never think of it as ""training"", per se.) I also commute by bike, and add a few ""CP loops"" even if it's cold and dark.

BTW, While I don't speak for the group, I think many of us will be a bit rusty, so I doubt our pace will be in peak season form. I'd say take a shot, and if you can't keep up, there's nothing wrong with taking it at your own pace (as long as you're OK being dropped).

Wed, 02/28/2007 - 1:20pm

#12

Hank Schiffman (not verified)

You may cross train. But you never want to lose your aerobic fitness.

Wed, 02/28/2007 - 1:39pm

#13

Stéphane (not verified)

Roadrash (and others) you don't have to do the A23 now, you can start with the STS A19 for a few weeks, and do the A23 when you feel strong enough.
It will still be no more than 80 miles the fifth week.

Anyway, if you shorten the time you pull in the paceline, you can ride with riders working harder than you, while still riding at the desired pace.
Moreover, John's cue sheets, often accompanied by a map, are great, even I can read them without my reading glasses if I missed a turn.

Wed, 02/28/2007 - 2:11pm

#14

Robert Shay (not verified)

This is a fast and controlled paceline group!

"I rode with this group once 2 years ago and was dropped - although I did the full 100+ mile ride on my own.

I can ride 22 MPH on level ground without a paceline for a long, long time but this group rides in very good paceline formation at 23 MPH+. I don't recommend going with this group unless you can comfortably sustain 23 MPH(for at least 20 minutes) on your own without a draft - if you plan on riding over your head, you will put this group at risk.

I completed the ride with a ""slower"" rider in the group."

Wed, 02/28/2007 - 3:20pm

#15

John Z (not verified)

Winter Training

"I bought a PT300 Pro so I would not have any excuses. I was never a morning person, but I have learned that beginning your day with a workout does start the day off right."

Wed, 02/28/2007 - 5:01pm

#16

John Z (not verified)

Distances

Actually, the first ride is only 66 miles. A couple years back we straightened the route through Bergen County a bit.

Wed, 02/28/2007 - 6:28pm

#17

Hajo (not verified)

intensity

how does this group ride compare to the infamous Gimbles ride in Westchester?

Wed, 02/28/2007 - 7:25pm

#18

Hank Schiffman (not verified)

"The Gimbel's Ride increases its pace as the ride progresses. The A23 should maintain a steady effort. Ideally, the pace should slow on the front of the rollers and increase on the back side. But the effort should be even. Granted, individuals at the front of the A23 have been known to bust the paceline by hammering up the front of rollers. Racers are supposed to take advantage of their own strengths and others' weaknesses. However, this is counter to cooperative pacelining. I would disagree that you should be able to ride at a solo 23 pace for the distance to do this ride. In theory, riders should be strong enough to ride the paceline at a tempo pace and only go to lactate threshold when they are out front. Therefore, you should be able to ride at a 20-21 mph pace solo in tempo. As Stephane stated, limiting the time of your pull gives individuals flexibility.

The cue sheet for Saturday's ride (use the pdf version) is up on the NYCC Ride Library: http://www.nycc.org/rl_db/ride.aspx?id=96

Itis listed in NJ/ Rockland Co under Cold Spring, Saddle River.

Wed, 02/28/2007 - 9:24pm

#19

el jefe (not verified)

Gimbels

"Hank, I guess you have a lot of experience on Gimbels? If what you mean by ""The Gimbel's Ride increases its pace as the ride progresses"" is that the Gimbels Ride does a moderately paced warmup, then I agree. Most NYCC rides that I've participated in were up to full speed by Engineer's Gate. In fact, the first 20 miles of my last STS ride was nearly as hard as any race I did all year.

The intensity of Gimbels does increase after the warmup and over the hills on Rte 22, but after that the effort level remains fairly constant. Every Gimbels Ride is different since it's not necessarily intended to be a cooperative affair, but it's rare that the pace increases steadily throughout the ride.

Hajo, you should have no problem with any of the STS-23 rides, but make sure you get a good warmup in first!
"

Thu, 03/01/2007 - 5:43am

#20

Hank Schiffman (not verified)

Jeff, precisely, Gimbels, is not directly organized. It has a tradition which is rooted in competition. The STS has underlying principles of mutual cooperation, hopefully which the participants agree to.

Does a person who has ridden Gimbels once or 5 times have the same depth of understanding as the person who had done it a hundred times? Does someone who does the same thing repeatedly make them an expert? Can a writer have an understanding on a subject which he has never directly experienced? We are all blind men with elephants.

Thu, 03/01/2007 - 11:58am

#21

<a href="http://www.OhReallyOreilly.com">Peter O'Reilly</a> (not verified)

STS & Gimbel's experiences

"While I have not ridden Gimbel's, reading other's experiences, it does not always appear to be a fairly constant effort. I think the only similarity between Gimbels and the A23 STS is that the rides are fast.

For instance, for Gimbel's, there's a couple of opportunities to contest sprints, folks attack, breakway, not stop for flats, etc. It appears to me reading online and the verbal accounts given, that at times it is a mock road race.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's a popular ride that appeals to many. Just be clear you know what to expect. Decide for yourself, here's some links detailing such:

http://www.nyvelocity.com/content.php?id=96

http://www.velogogo.com/GimbelsRide/GimbelsRideJournal2006December9

http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/wwtr/dispride.asp?ride=35

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EFD819D.php

As for the A23 STS, I agree many folks tend to start out way too fast, especially on the first ride or two and quickly learn what their (winter fitness) limits are. There are also those who know how to pace themselves well, like John and Hank, and efficiently on a long and fast ride. That alone provides a good learning opportunity for others in the group.

I can assure those concerned here thinking about doing the A23 STS this year, you will have me, at the very least as company, riding in the back at the start of the rides. Don't sell yourself short. Give it a try."

Thu, 03/01/2007 - 2:45pm

#22

Jonathan Bloom (not verified)

I only did one A 23 STS last year (Harriman Hell) and being a STS novice the mistake I made was thinking I had to take pulls of 23 on the flats. At least once, I was actually told to ease off.

But as the ride evolved and sub-groups were formed, it did very much take on a race (gimbels) like vibe with riders attacking on the climbs and chase groups being formed etc. I welcomed this as I was using this ride to train for a race that has some of the same climbs (I faired far worse in the actual race then the STS). I will say though, by the end of the ride, I was more exhausted then most gimbels rides that I've done. Not really surprising considering the long gimbels loop is much shorter with far less climbing.

Thu, 03/01/2007 - 10:25am

#23

Bob (not verified)

A-23 STS experience

How many STS rides have you done? I've done quite a few, but don't recall anyone going by the name el jefe. I agree the rides start out fast and stay that way.

Thu, 03/01/2007 - 2:56pm

#24

Steve W (not verified)

As one who has done both...

"I have done the Gimbel's ride a number of times but it is not my usual weekend ride. I also do the STS and often, especially during the early rides, I am off the back of the group. I am especially slow on anything that is more than a hint of incline.

That said, I concur with el jefe regarding Gimbel's intensity. I get over the bump before the spilt usually near the front of the pack. Taking 22 after the split, I am usually going all out to stay connected. I spend the rest of ride going from back to front and back again as the pace changes. I enjoy the flowing ""peloton"" feel in Gimbel's and have, on rare occassions, led out sprints.

The STS rides are about steady effort and making sure you get over the climbs with enough in the tank to make the early train back to the city. It is the cooperative paceline that usually gets one to climbs. One of the favorite roads is Springtown, just outside of New Paltz. It is a flat 7 mile stretch where a good paceline gets the group flying.

Looking forward to the pain on Saturday

Steve"

Thu, 03/01/2007 - 4:41pm

#25

[email protected] (not verified)

my 2 pennies

actually not sure what the point of this thread is, but, hell, feel like posting anyway!

i love the debates that go on about rides and what to expect...yada, yada, yada. this happened more than once during my hogwich series too. i say who cares? what's the point? yes, it will be fast. yes, you should know how to paceline. yes, it helps to be self-sufficient. if you can't keep up, you can't keep up. don't be afraid to try if you want a hard ride. take a map and have fun. just ride your bike, whether it's the gimbel's ride, sts, nyack or laps in the park.

i'd love to join you guys saturday (and i still might), but i'm afraid it might totally trash me for the first race of the season the next day.

Thu, 03/01/2007 - 7:33pm

#26

Hank Schiffman (not verified)

We would be honored to have The Hogwich Guy on an STS ride but fully understand the position of racers when it comes to what these rides can do to a training schedule. Likewise we were honored to have El Jefe on the Skyline Drive/ Greenwood Lake ride last year. Interestingly, he was also on the first NYCC ride I did to Greenwood Lake. I think Abraham Lincoln was in the White House back then...

I don't understand what Jonathan means that 23 was too fast in the flats in this series. Are you sure it wasn't an uphill stretch? 23 is the pace in the flats. Regarding the ride breaking up in the hills: this is expected. Hill climbing on these rides is the main course. You can maintain tempo in the paceline. But hill climbing is power divided by weight. Each rider has their own ratio. Individuals are expected to ascend at their own rate. Regrouping after climbs are aspects of cooperative effort. Frequently after climbs the ride will break into sub groups. Ideally, the ride should not morph into a free-for-all, but things happen off the front....

Fri, 03/02/2007 - 7:52am

#27

Jonathan Bloom (not verified)

Hank, it was on Seven Lakes Drive. Could've been one of the rollers I guess, my point being is that I was overly concerned w/MPH and not group dynamics, head wind etc. John did a good job clarifying this in his post. I also enjoy doing rides that are listed with a speed range or a plus sign. I totally understand the logic of listing this series as A23, however.

Have a great series, I hope to join you at least once this season as well.
Hopefully w/señor jefe and and mr. hogwich.

Fri, 03/02/2007 - 8:16am

#28

Robert Shay (not verified)

I'll be out there too...

I've been working on my speed (computrainer) and hills. I'll join a ride or two in the next few weeks once I adjust to the outdoors again.

Sat, 03/03/2007 - 2:13pm

#29

Ron Thomson (not verified)

good ride today

man, this beer tastes good!!

Sat, 03/03/2007 - 5:33pm