Why so much defiance in following traffic laws?

  • Home
  • Why so much defiance in following traffic laws?
28 replies [Last post]
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous

If running a red light on a vehicle, like bicycle for example, is against the law, why so many of you do it? Why don't you focus on getting enough support to change the law in cevilized way, rather than break it and hope it will be changed? Going to court and hoping to get a liberal judge who will let you go may not help you next time when you encounter someone who will follow the law.

What amazes me is that I see so many of New York City riders over the weekend on 9W, and you all seem to follow the traffic law of red light, so what prevents you to follow the same rule in the city? And don't tell me there are lights at every block as an excuse, because if it is law, then either follow or find solution, like filing a petition or moving to a place where the traffic lights are not at every block. Don't break the law! Remember why the civilization was established, because our forefathers did not see value in the survival of the fittest law of the jungle :)

Hope this comments are considered though provoking, and not slanderous.

Anonymous's picture
Joe (not verified)

I, many of the people who read this board and thousands of other cyclists DO work to change the status quo in a civilized fashion. We advocate for better cycling on a regular basis. This is WHY we have designated multi-user trails and bike paths in NYC, because of our activism.

So until the authorities realize that bicycle transportation is incredibly efficient and re-design our streets to better facilitate bicycle travel, I'll continue to run red lights--as few as possible, in as safe a manner as possible, putting no one at physical risk but myself.

Anonymous's picture
lance also !! (not verified)

hey ,Joe , you sound like a brat ie;I'll do what I want ,when I want & the hell with what anyone thinks ,----what's that all about , being so defiant doesn't help matters much, if you refuse to cooperate with the authorities ,why should they have any respect for YOU!!

Anonymous's picture
Perry Roubaix (not verified)
troll alert

Troll alert:

1. fake bad English.

Anonymous's picture
Lance B (not verified)

Dear frog living in a well,

Open up and look what the Ocean is all about :)

You want to know about English? check the link I posted earlier somewhere on this board regarding different dialects of English...

Anonymous's picture
anti-difiance (not verified)
because we can

"We do because we can get away with it.

1) Driver who run red lights get points on their licence, which in turn jack up their insurance premuim. Many city cyclist don't own cars so there's no insurance to go up. So, even if the judge isn't ""liberal"", there's no lasting effect beyond a few bucks of fine. (Not to mention many of us don't carry our drivers licence on bike in the first place so there's nothing to ticket against)

2) Pedestrians run red light all the time. They don't worry about getting ticketed for the same reason as above. The police knows that so they don't ticket them. Same goes for cyclist.

3) We're lazy. Braking and re-accelerating requires physical effort. There's no gas sucking engine to do the dirty work for us.

With a lot of effort required to obey the law, and little penalty if we don't, what's the incentive to do so?"

Anonymous's picture
Vik (not verified)
ID required?

If you don't carry the driver licence, do you carry any other ID? What happens if police stop you and you don't have any ID? Will you be arrested?

Anonymous's picture
anti-difiance (not verified)
Don't think they can

There's no requirement to carry id while biking or walking.

So if you jaywalk, will you get arrested?

Anonymous's picture
elsa ecnal (not verified)

I think that not having identification on your person falls under the heading of vagrant , for which a summons can be issued and may require a court appearance on your part,so it would pay not to be a smart ass with the officer

Anonymous's picture
Vik (not verified)
Summons w/o ID?

Suppose I run a red light (is this jaywalking?), get stopped by an officer and don't have any ID. How can he give me a summons w/o my ID? Doesn't it mean I'll be arrested to get my name?

If you don't carry the driver license, don't you always carry the medical insuarance and credit/ATM cards?

Anonymous's picture
elsa (not verified)

Vik , Q # 1= NO-- Q#2=Dunno( if you carry C.C. & Med. Ins.cards,then they'll probably issue to name on card) Q#3=Dunno-- Q#4=Yes----moral; carry someone elses'credit card

Anonymous's picture
anti-difiance (not verified)
No need to cheat

"""...carry someone elses'credit card""

But unless you have a rather unique name. The summon, even with your real name, might as well be a peice of garbage. There can be quite many, say, Adam Johnson in this city of 10 million!"

Anonymous's picture
Richard Rosenthal (not verified)
"Two questions to lance ""Lance B."" and ""Lance Also"""

Tell the truth now, boys: Don't you walk through red lights every time you can do so safely?

Of course you do.

Why?

Anonymous's picture
Hank Schiffman (not verified)

And guys, if you are going to stand up on a chair and pontificate, why don't you first wash your face and comb your hair?

There is this thing called proofreading...

Anonymous's picture
Lance B (not verified)

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the response. I do not think the police give out tickets to people walking red lights (I am not talking about Jaywalker here). SO by process of elismination, I do not think it is against the law.

Also, by proving one wrong doe not mean the other is right :).

Anonymous's picture
Hank Schiffman (not verified)

"Are we to suppose the old ""Don't Walk"" lights were a mere suggestion?"

Anonymous's picture
Claudette (not verified)
Crossing against the light

Lance,
In certain parts of the country, pedestrians are ticketed for crossing against the light. Unsure if there is a city law against it, but I am sure someone on this board (Stephane?) will find one.

~CML

Anonymous's picture
Richard Rosenthal (not verified)
Deconstructing Lance and lancing a boil.

I'm sure Perry Roubaix--a clever homonym--has it right in identifying these as trolls, faking English as a second language. (One giveaway: Lance refers to the forefathers--an unusual word for someone not born in America to use--he and we have in common. If Lance were not American-born, his forefathers would not be the forefathers of those born in America unless he is of a Biblical mindset.)

But I'll go ahead anyhow and observe Lance, in answering me, misses my point...or, more likely, pretends to. While his argument can be made, what he says critically of cyclists who disobey red lights applies to him in precisely the same terms he uses because he walks through red lights. I'll hazard the guess he is not working to change the law as it applies to pedestrians.

However, as he says, proving him wrong does not prove us right; it merely points up his hypocrisy.

Anonymous's picture
Lance B (not verified)

Hi Richard,

Actually, English is my third language (born in British Commonwealth), and it is marely a different dialect than north American one spoken and used here. Anyway, I hope language barrier is not an issue here. As I mentioned earlier, I am aware of the senisitivity of this subject, and I hoped this would be Though(t) provoking :). That's all. You all should have fun in what you love to do. It is a great sport and I love it too.

For those knowing American dialect only and curious to learn more, here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences

Anonymous's picture
Richard Rosenthal (not verified)
Geo Bernard Shaw makes your point typically wittily

The British and Americans are two countries separated by a common language.

G.B. Shaw

(And if this is cited in your wikipedia link, I'll be embarrassed as I didn't go to it.)

Anonymous's picture
Joe (not verified)

Lance B, first, it seems completely unrealistic to expect traffic laws will ever be amended to allow cyclists to run lights. Motorists and pedestrians hardly seem to recognize cyclists' existing rights, so lobbying for an expansion of rights into areas such as running red lights is an exercise in futility.

Second, as to the mentality of the cyclists that routinely run lights: in this country, cyclists are treated as outlaws by motorists, peds, etc., so don't be surprised when we behave as such.

Third, cyclists have a very strong incentive to exercise extreme caution when running red lights - namely, they stand to be killed if they are not careful. Motorists don't have the same level of exposure when they run reds. In that sense, and in the sense of their maneuverability and the lethality they present to others, cyclists crossing reds are more akin to peds crossing reds than to motorists. And every ped I know is willing to cross on red.

Anonymous's picture
Hank Schiffman (not verified)

"You have to ask yourself, ""can I be a moral person and not obey all of the laws of the land?"" Do we answer to the law or what we consider reasonable and just? Perhaps the way laws are enforced gives insight into which laws are considered reasonable and just by a community. As peds, if we stand on a corner at at red light and there is no traffic, we are schmucks. Few New Yorkers would disagree. If we follow the golden rule and are on a bike in the same situation, I think the community would agree that going through the light is okay. Is there a disagreement here?"

Anonymous's picture
Rich Conroy (not verified)
Slippery Slope

"Once you start down this road, you open the door to cyclists who think it's ok to run red lights, any time, any place, including when traffic is coming through the green. Which is basically what we have in NYC. So, if waiting for the light makes us ""schmucks"", we shouldn't be so surprised or outraged at nasty anti-cycling letters and editorials, anti-cycling bills, or police harassment. It's simply unrealistic to expect that cyclists will generate more public sympathy or political clout by routinely breaking the law.

I cross Riverside Dr. to & from work almost everyday, on my way to/from the bike path (which, to the north of 103rd, has almost no traffic lights btw). On several occasions when I've crossed at the green I've had close calls with cyclists running the red--and who seem to think that's its perfectly OK to refuse to yield the right of way to someone else, in a situation in which others very clearly have it. And they are running that red at a place where they can't necessarily see what's entering the roadway (which is why I wait until the green--parked cars on a curve make it difficult to see approaching cyclists until I'm in the road). It's rude, it's dangerous, and it lends a pretty bad image to cyclists.
To say that someone is a ""schmuck"" for not running a red when there's no traffic also sends a pretty mixed signal to others about what cyclists are supposed to do and not do. I don't know how many ignorant non-cyclists have told me ""hey dude, why are you waiting at the light--you can just run it"" (or a variation--""hey dude--don't wait in that line of traffic--just ride on the sidewalk to go through red light"").

Being a minority of road users, cyclists constantly have to defend our rights to use the road, against motoring lobbies and motoring authorities who don't want us there. Respecting the rules of the road doesn't make a cyclist a schmuck, but a smart politician and advocate for cyclists rights.

Rich Conroy"

Anonymous's picture
Joe (not verified)

Cyclists who run reds without slowing down enough to make sure it's safe to run the red are a self-eliminating problem. As I said, I routinely run reds, but with much caution.

If you wait at lights, more power to you. I wish I had your patience.

Motorists don't want us on the roads whether we're running reds or not.

Anonymous's picture
Hank Schiffman (not verified)

"Rich, as Ron Roth says, ""I believe you believe you think you understand what I said, but I also believe you don't understand what I said.""

Please reread what I wrote, carefully."

Anonymous's picture
Lance B (not verified)

Dear all,

I am thinking outside of the box here, so be patient :)

You are thinking about what you have to do every day in order to ride, and to deal with the red lights and what not. I do not argue with that. But is not it unfair to ask to change laws so that some of you, who, for whatever duration will be living in the city, can be benefited?

I personally think that for a city like NY, it will cost millions of dollars to satisfy less than 1% of the city poulation which is cyclist enthusiast who most likely will not be part of the Gotham down the road, either moved to the suberbs and what not. Let's face it, what are we trying to acomplish here?

Also, there are bike paths both on east and west sides. It just takes a little effort to go out there and enjoy riding, rather than crusing down an Avenue with a light every block, because we are all in a rat race and do not have time to use the bike paths!

Again, just thought provoking....

Anonymous's picture
lance also !! (not verified)

"Hank, I believe that you believe that we'll believe that you actually believe what you believe ( taken from the text of ""You Gotta Believe"")"

Anonymous's picture
Hank Schiffman (not verified)
Rich's response was a non sequitur. (nm)
Anonymous's picture
rob (not verified)
a solution?

Perhaps this thread is not really pursuing a solution, but here's my approach. If this approach were followed by all cyclists in the city, we would all be safe, respected, and still get to our destinations before subway, bus, and cab riders!
1. Respect the cars. They are big and fast and can hurt you.
2. Respect pedestrians. They have the right of way.
3. Respect other cyclists. Don't talk on the cel phone, listen to your iPod, etc. Be aware.
4. Respect yourself. Wear a helmet. Use lights after dark.

Go through all intersections with care, whether you have the light or not. Noone is expecting you, noone is looking out for you. You have to be careful not to hit or scare pedestrians, and not to get hit by cars.

If cyclists show some respect, we might earn some respect. There is nothing wrong with going through a red light. But there is something wrong with the sense of entitlement that the entire community has to work around our needs. Bikes are great for people, and great for the city. The better this can be expressed, the sooner the city and it's inhabitants will appreciate biking and bikers.

cycling trips