May be it’s just me … (need to vent)

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20 replies [Last post]
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous

"May be I just don’t understand something and somebody can explain why on almost every ride there is a couple (more, if you’re “lucky”) of people who

a) use every stop to get ahead (preferably, right behind the leader) and then just let the leaders go. Farther and farther, till they completely disappear in the sunset/rain/thin air or at least till they’re a couple hundred feet away. Then someone loses patience, pass this person and everybody speeds up to catch up with the leaders. Next traffic light and it’s a rerun of The Stubborn Cyclist Against Everyone Else.

b) insist on riding two to three feet on the left in the single file formation. Why not? you may ask. Because it leaves the person behind them with two equally bad choices - close the gap and collide with the enthusiast of riding on the left when the latter hears a car behind and jumps back in line or ride with a gap ahead (does the word “drafting” ring any bells?)

Seriously, may be I just don’t understand something and they do have legitimate reasons to do this. Can anyone educate me before I completely ruin my karma with bad thoughts about wonderful people? Otherwise, let’s elect an official who will issue tickets for such behavior and after the third ticket take away the violator’s club socks.
"

Anonymous's picture
sympathetic sympathim (not verified)

I'm all for the removal of socks.

But don't forget to mention:

c) those enthusiasts at the front that leap out of their saddles as soon as the traffic light turns green and hammer -- apparently to make up the time they will lose waiting at the next red light -- while everyone (waiting in tidy single file behind them, of course) sprints to close the gap, only to have to clip out again.

Does disciplined riding begin and end with the SIG? Please let this year prove me wrong!

Anonymous's picture
mangold (not verified)
Answer: YES

"think of SIG as training wheels for cycling/cyclists - while it's handy and helpful for teaching some good cycling etiquette - and handy for NYCC ""social cycling"" outings - you'd be laughed at on a real pack ride. You've got to kick off your training wheels and just know that you've moved on to the real challenge of riding with other cyclists in a more ""natural"" setting - not the insulation of SIG rides. I've cycled a good few places in this country and I've never seen anything like the SIG - I feel it makes for very anal riders and riding and gives a false notion of what cycling is all about - at least real sport cycling - like I said - maybe SIG is only appropriate to NYCC ""social cycling""."

Anonymous's picture
sympathetic sympathim (not verified)
you speak for yourself

"and i ask: what about on a real paceline ride?

And what's so ""anal"" about riding gracefully in a straight line and so right about riding in a pack?"

Anonymous's picture
Sig (not verified)
The Pack

There are a few advantages of riding in a pack:
1. No rules to make the ride safe. Yahooooooooo
2. You can cut people off and show how dangerously macho you can be.
3. The joy of weaving in and out of riders, forcing them to slam on their brakes to avoid you, is a rush. It's so TourDeFrancy.
4. Ride without hands for no reason to demonstrate bike control and general superiority of being.
5. No need to alert the rider in front when you pass. If you're real lucky, you can force them into a pothole or broken glass patch when they move over to avoid crashing.

The list goes on and on.

SIG leader

Anonymous's picture
Fendergal (not verified)

"Perhaps you don't have a lot of pack-riding experience, and you perceive a pack as a place with a total lack of rules, hence chaos. I see pack riding as safer than a paceline, as the group is constantly shifting to conform to the conditions at hand (road surface, traffic, speed, etc.).

There are some basic concepts that one should always follow, whether in a pack or a paceline: don't overlap wheels, look ahead of the wheel in front of you, don't grab the brakes, keep a firm grip on the bars. I rarely see such shenanigans, such as the ""no hands"" riding.

A pack is only as safe as its riders. For example, I have been doing the Gimbel's ride for years, and have witnessed only a couple crashes; most of the participants are very experienced, and know how to handle their bikes in close quarters.

What the original poster seems to be complaining about is people treating a paceline ride like a pack ride. I'm not sure what the solution is. I suppose the options are 1. speak to these people and hope they see the error of their ways, 2. stay in front of them at all times, 3. don't ride with them, or 4. lead your own rides and lay down firm rules. Or just relax. It's just a bike ride!

"

Anonymous's picture
don montalvo (not verified)
gimbles...or little neck pack ride

> A pack is only as safe as its riders. For example, I have been
> doing the Gimbel's ride for years, and have witnessed only a
> couple crashes; most of the participants are very experienced,
> and know how to handle their bikes in close quarters.

yep, the sig gives you the basics...gimbles and the little neck pack ride (faster and flatter) give you advanced skills. never saw an accident on either of these - saw plenty of accidents on nycc rides.

don

Anonymous's picture
Mordecai Silver (not verified)
Gimbel's ride

"Don Montalvo wrote: ""yep, the sig gives you the basics...gimbles and the little neck pack ride (faster and flatter) give you advanced skills. never saw an accident on either of these - saw plenty of accidents on nycc rides.""

I've only done the Gimbel's ride twice. The second time I did it, a rider crashed hard in the Greenwich area. I forget whether it was a pothole or something else that caused the crash. We called an ambulance. Turned out that he broke his pelvis. I heard there was another crash on the short ride (the one that goes right on 120 at the intersection of 22 and 120, if I recall correctly) that same day. I'm not saying that accidents are common on the Gimbel's ride, but please don't tell me that racers and ""racer wannabes"" are so skilled that they never crash when doing training rides in a pack. Some riders consider the Gimbel's ride as their race and ride irresponsibly, especially at the sprints.

And I've heard that the long ride has recently had a lot of trouble with the Bedford police. They've cracked down because a women was killed and a man badly hurt riding in their jurisdiction last year."

Anonymous's picture
gimbels rider (not verified)

As a relatively lomg-time rider of both Gimbels and NYCC rides, my experience is that Gimbels is immeasurably safer than a typical NYCC A-ride.

Anonymous's picture
don montalvo (not verified)
"never said ""never""..."

"...the nycc riders crash more than the skilled little neck pack and gimbles riders. boils down to experience and skill level. the sig is a great intro to fast riding - but you have to race to get to the next skill level.

don


Mordecai Silver wrote

> I'm not saying that accidents are common on the Gimbel's
> ride, but please don't tell me that racers and ""racer wannabes""
> are so skilled that they never crash when doing training rides
> in a pack.
"

Anonymous's picture
anonymous anonym (not verified)

To think about it - this is exactly what I was complaining about :)

And you're right – Nos. 1 to 4 all work (with various degree of success) and if one adds a good dose of No. 5 (relaxing) one can salvage any ride :)

Just wanted to add some effect to 1 by using the board :)

Anonymous's picture
Bill Vojtech (not verified)

Quote:
a) use every stop to get ahead (preferably, right behind the leader) and then just let the leaders go.
--------
So what does this rider do to the rider that was behind the leader? Elbow them out of the way?

If the line is keeping formation, he should have no place to go.

Anonymous's picture
anonymous anonym (not verified)
It's not pack vs. paceline

"It's not pack vs. paceline that I was talking about. In many places cars or traffic rules will force you to ride single file so pack vs. paceline becomes a somewhat moot issue.

What’s more important, fast and smooth ride is enjoyable whether it’s in a pack or paceline, and yo-yoing, slamming your brakes, etc. is not. Compact group is good in both cases and group with 200 feet holes in it is not. These things are universal. Whatever the formation is – respect it. Don’t let the leaders go and don’t weave unpredictably in and out of the formation. It may be more important for a paceline but it's still important for a pack, isn't it?

As for the NYCC ""social"" rides - it’s very simple, really. Before doing something, consider how it will affect the ride. If you’re not sure what effect your actions will have – stay on the back for a while and observe. If you’re not sure that you can clip in, accelerate, descend and climb almost as fast as the leaders do – stay at the back till you’re ready. Cause that’s where you will end up anyway after the entire group passes you, so why not skip this part and make people like and support you instead of quietly (or not so quietly) curse you as they dodge cars and fight hills trying to pass you.
"

Anonymous's picture
Karol (not verified)
what sig did you do? if that's not too personal. (nm)
Anonymous's picture
anonymous anonym (not verified)

"Did you mean to ask ""SIG leader"" above? Because I wasn't talking about SIGs at all."

Anonymous's picture
Josh (not verified)
Pace line v. Pack

"It all depends on what you want to do. If you want to prove yourself incessently, join a ""pack"" type ride and hammer all day. Or better still; join a racing club and enter races, where competitive riding is completely appropriate.

The point of the ""sig"" type riding (ugh, who came up with that term?) is for people who want to ride together, in small or medium sized groups, agree to stay together and ride cooperatively. To do that, people have to put aside their competitive natures for the greater goals of the group. It requires strong, predictable riding technique, and reasonable interpersonal skills. NYCC has always promoted this, even long before SIGS were invented."

Anonymous's picture
Fendergal (not verified)

"I couldn't disagree more about your distinction between pack and paceline riding. I have found that NYCC rides, particularly A rides and even some B rides, have become more and more competitive, with less emphasis on cooperation and more emphasis on dropping people. This is partly why I don't ride much with the club anymore.

Pack riding isn't necessarily fast. A pack isn't regularly trading off lead riders, so the pace can be slow. Pack riding is not necessarily about ""proving oneself."" You can sit in a pack, never be in the wind, not work, and just get pulled along.

I do agree that more people ought to try out racing, because club rides are not appropriate places to be competitive.

As for the origin of SIG, I believe Christy Guzzetta came up with that term.
"

Anonymous's picture
Steve (not verified)

"I would image that if you can hang on the Gimbels ride you can comfortably handle the pace of any NYCC ride, and the Gimbels ride is probably more ""competitive"" then any NYCC ride.

That being said, I don't see the problem with having fast rides where people race for the top of the hill, sprint for the state line, get dropped, etc."

Anonymous's picture
el jefe (not verified)
pack vs pace

"While I agree that if you can ""hang on"" to the full Gimbels ride, you can ""handle the pace of any NYCC ride"", I don't find Gimbels all that competitive. 80-90% of the riders there are just trying to stay with the group. Very few are 'proving themselves incessantly'. I did a recent STS ride where the first 20 miles were harder than the first lap at the Jiminy Peak Road Race. Riders rolled off the front several times in groups of 2 and 3. It seemed like many were trying to show how strong they were.

If it's OK on NYCC rides to ""race for the top of the hill, sprint for the state line, get dropped, etc"", then those rides are equally competitive and smart riders will take shorter pulls and spend more time sheltered from the wind (very easy on most NYCC rides where riders from the back bunch up at lights and move to the front).

I agree with Josh that cooperative pacelining ""requires strong, predictable riding technique, and reasonable interpersonal skills"". The problem is that since NYCC rides are open to all, what does one do when they don't trust a rider in front of them or see riders who are obviously sloppy and potentially dangerous? It's rude to pull out of the line and force yourself in closer to the front. In a ""pack"" type ride that isn't an issue; if you don't like the riders around you, move up.

It's two different styles of riding and both work well when done properly, but participants need to know which to expect and play by the appropriate rules."

Anonymous's picture
Steve (not verified)

If I saw someone that was dangerous I would take the opportunity to explain to them the finer points of group riding. If that didn't work, I tell them to go to the back where they can't hurt anyone. Their hurt feelings will heal quicker then broken bones.

Anonymous's picture
RB (not verified)
STS

STS riders showing off? naw! - couldn't agree more; STS rides I've been on are the essence of how NOT to ride cooperatively - imagine if everyone actually rode consistently - then the group could fly along. but alas....

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