bike frames: titanium vs. carbon

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Anonymous's picture
Anonymous

can someone please direct me to a source that will definitively explain the benefits and drawbacks of both titanium and carbon frames. I get a great deal of conflicting information and would like to get this sorted out. I am not a strong rider so my goal here is to find a material that will help me get the most out of my effort. Thanks,Carl

Anonymous's picture
kley (not verified)
Sheldon Brown

Carl,

Check out Sheldon Brown's article (somewhat dated, as the section on carbon is abbreviated) on frame materials for the touring cyclist (i.e. not racing).

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

And then there's the slightly more slanted article on Henry James' site which will have you riding a lugged steel frame in no time ;)

http://www.henryjames.com/faq.html

< excerpt >

Okay, so lighter weight won't make you go any faster. What's wrong with enjoying light weight stuff? If your interest is in owning light weight technology, nothing. If your interest has more to do with using a bike to achieve some personal goals, the pursuit of light weight is a waste of money.

< /excerpt >


Kevin (completely biased and grouchy)

Anonymous's picture
carl cohen (not verified)

Two great resources, thanks. I knew frame weight was unimportant, but i thought that possibly frame stiffness,density or material might be. these articles seem to debunk the thought that frame materials makes a difference. I'm a lot more interested in losing 20 pounds of ass than 3 pounds of bike. So its back to keep training and find a bike with a good fit thats really, really pretty. Thanks Carl

Anonymous's picture
Neile (not verified)
""" ... than 3 pounds of bike."""

More like 3 ounces ...

Independent Fabrications, who build in steel as well as titanium, list their steel road frames at 3.5-3.8 lbs.

http://www.ifbikes.com/frames/specifications.html

They *don't* list the titanium weights. Guess why not.

Anonymous's picture
kley (not verified)
heh, yep

Plus, if one is looking for something really, really pretty – as Carl seems to be – there is no easier way, in my mind than if you stick with handmade lugged steel construction ;)

An alternative to Independent, and far less rich, is Mercian. Habitat on Lafayette are hooked into the Mercian custom program. And from what I've heard, frameset prices start around $800. The only thing lacking is the quality of paint, when compared to the handmade Italian frames of the 70-80s and many of the artisan builders here in the states.

http://www.merciancycles.com

Happy hunting!
Kevin (still riding a handmade lugged steel 1986 Somec)

Anonymous's picture
Maggie Clarke (not verified)
IF vs Mercian

What are the main differences? Materials, weight, colors, flexibility in geometry?

Anonymous's picture
kley (not verified)
off the top of my head

"Mercian is primarily lugged steel, while IF seems to make primarily welded frames (exclusively, according to their website). The frequently held opinion is that this makes the frame lighter, when in fact it's the other way round.

http://www.henryjames.com/faq.html

Scroll down to """"LUGGED FRAMES WEIGH MORE THAN WELDED FRAMES.""

The Mercian finishing is nothing to write home about; in fact, I think I've wasted enough words on it already. OTOH the colors are encouraging. Most every frame is fully customizable (geometry, tubing, finishing, braze-ons etc. etc.) Give Hal a call at Bicycle Habitat and chat him up. You might want to go in with your current steed to start the conversation. I believe he has several for touring and racing. In fact, I think he rode cross country on a lugged Mercian.

Bon Courage!

"

Anonymous's picture
Maggie Clarke (not verified)
IF

"I've been working with Sid's on a new bike after 25 years with a 29 pound Zebrakenko (that's without the 5 pound bag...) They've suggested Independent Fabrications lightweight steel with ""relaxed"" geometry for comfort (and I suspect stretched up (for my longer legs) and short (for my short arms). I narrowed materials to steel and ""ti"" because of all the horror stories I've continued to hear - even from bike stores - about invisible, but possible deadly imperfections that can result from minor ""incidents"" with carbon frames, and because aluminum is harsh. I'm told I could have a bike that's 20-21 pounds and reduce weight of the bag too. I'd think that, along with newer components, would help me get up the hills a little faster... That's All I need. So far though they haven't been able to match my gears. (13-34; 26-48). I will absolutely need that too. This past Sunday's ride to Stamford -- with only one attendee besides myself :-( almost did damage to my knees coz my bike shop messed with the front derailleur and I couldn't shift to the granny. (Thankfully loosening the inner screw And raising and rotating the derailleur helped before I got to the real hills of Greenwich...)"

Anonymous's picture
Carol (not verified)
Now, if you're looking for pretty...

Richard Sachs, master frame builder in Chester, CT, builds lugged steel frames. He hand cuts the lugs and they are great art.

As for weight, I have two Independant Fabrication bikes - a steel touring frame and a Ti road frame. There's almost no difference in weight. (Carbon probably would save you a pound.) The difference between the bikes is frame design and geometry - one's built for comfortable touring, the other for agressive club rides. Plus, you don't have to worry about taking the Ti out in the rain. If you go with steel, make sure the insides of the tubes are coated so you won't get rust.

But first and foremost, get a bike that fits you properly, then enjoy years of comfortable cycling.

Anonymous's picture
Evan Marks (not verified)
Commissioned works of art

Sachs builds about 50-60 frames a year, the price is $2500, and the waiting time is a year and a half.

(Aside. It's been pointed out that frame material is unimportant, that the framebuilder's art is paramount - aluminum can be made to ride like steel, titanium can be made to ride like CF and steel can be made to ride like anything.)

Anonymous's picture
An anonymous cow! (Christian Edstrom) (not verified)

The wait for a Sachs is now in excess of 40 months.

Regards,
- Christian

Anonymous's picture
kley (not verified)
uh huh

and that's about the appropriate time it would take (me) to justify spending 3k on a frameset… even if it is finished by joe bell.

Anonymous's picture
Matt P. (not verified)

Frame design (size and shape of tubes, etc.) has much more impact on ride quality than frame material. I've seen photos on RoadBikeReview.com of a carbon bike with a nasty gouge in it from a chair falling on it. In a race once, one of my friends had a hole ripped in his carbon frame by a chainring.

Try that with ti.

Anonymous's picture
An anonymous cow! (Christian Edstrom) (not verified)

While I agree that the gestalt of the frame design is the important aspect, not the frame material, I think you're putting a lot of emphasis on failure mode, in critiquing carbon fibre. I think that's a bit misguided.

If you owned an aluminum bike and a chair fell on it, it might get a ding that would render it unsafe to ride. A titanium bike might well get a crimp or cut from a chainring that would render it unrideable.

Yes, carbon fails in a manner different than metal tubes. It does not necessarily follow that it fails more often or more catastrophically. Nor would it follow that it might be a bad choice of frame material. After all, my Pegoretti is probably more susceptible to dings than a Raleigh 3 speed, but I'd still rather ride the Pegoretti up Little Tor.

- Christian

Anonymous's picture
Mordecai Silver (not verified)
Carbon fiber failure

"Scroll down to the last photo for an illustration:

http://www.nyvelocity.com/content.php?id=711

Luckily the rider appears to be smiling and unhurt."

Anonymous's picture
An anonymous cow! (Christian Edstrom) (not verified)

Yeah, but my point was, in a crash of that severity, the likelihood of a steel fork surviving is just as low. The failure mode may be different, but the ultimate result is not.

To wit - that planter in Ossining...

- Une vache anonime

Anonymous's picture
Maggie Clarke (not verified)
Speaking of failure...

"My aforementioned Zebrakenko Lightning (25 years old steel) suffered uncounted incidents and accidents in its lifetime, but the most significant was 3 months in when it was shipped to China for my 3 week bike tour there in 1981. When I pulled it out of the box, Charlie McCorkell from Bike Habitat, who sold me the bike and who was the tour leader exclaimed ""someone must have thrown a refrigerator on it!""
The frame and frame pump were dented (an inch and a half in length) a few inches from the head tube and downtube join, along the down tube. We weren't sure what to do, so I rode it, and it's been fine all these years. It's fallen over more times than I can remember (every year). I'd be afraid to buy a carbon frame where you wouldn't know if the last time it fell over, some invisible imperfection was created so that the next time you barreled over a pothole in the shadows at 30 mph it would break and send you flying. And I sure wouldn't want to have to replace the frame every time there was an ""incident"" just to be sure."

Anonymous's picture
An anonymous cow! (Christian Edstrom) (not verified)

No. I'm just going to write a post that will definitively explain the benefits and drawbacks of carbon fibre and titanium frames.

As an aside, there aren't really massive benefits and drawbacks to frame materials. They're all a bit of a compromise, and buying a bike based on the frame materials is a bit like buying a house based on where the framing timber comes from. It's the frame design and geometry that matters.

Out of curiosity, why aren't you considering steel or aluminum?

That said...

Carbon fibre

Benefits:

You can make an exceptionally light bicycle frame out of carbon fibre, often lighter than a bicycle frame of similar stiffness constructed out of aluminum, titanium, or steel.

Drawbacks:

Failures or weak spots in the carbon fibre (eg cracks or hollows in the matrix) are difficult to identify without expensive equipment.

As of the current time, it is expensive to make a custom-fitted carbon bicycle.

Titanium

Benefits:

Because it is exceptionally corrosion-resistant, you can make a titanium bicycle without paint which does not corrode. If you paint titanium, it has no apparent advantages over steel.

Drawbacks:

Titanium bicycle frames offer little to no weight advantage over steel frames, as the tensile strength of titanium alloys used in bicycle frames is significantly less than the tensile strength in steel frames, and so the tubes must be larger in diameter or thicker in gauge.

Regards,
En anonym ko

Anonymous's picture
carl cohen (not verified)
cf vs. titanium

i'm not thinking steel or aluminum because i am completely caught up in the hoopla (old time word for hype) of people telling me i should look at cf or titanium. i am probably way too easily influenced by people who seem to be well informed, which is why i was seeking resources and not opinions. thanks, carl

Anonymous's picture
An anonymous cow! (Christian Edstrom) (not verified)

The reason I ask is that I see the traditional analogues for carbon and titanium, respectively, to be aluminum and steel.

That is, for the lightest race bike available, I would look for a U2 or Scandium-alloyed aluminum frame, or a carbon frame.

For a life-time bike with a pleasant ride, I would look for a steel or titanium frame. Well, I'd probably just look at steel frames, but that's just me.

In other words, I think the determination of frame material is best made once the usage of the bike has been determined.

- Christian

Anonymous's picture
carl cohen (not verified)

i am definitely interested in a material that will last a long time, does this rule out c-f?

Anonymous's picture
carl cohen (not verified)

also, i forgot mention earlier, but when i am in the park or on club rides, most of the stronger riders seem to be on c-f or titanium. i'm sure this is not slways true, but much of the time it seems to be .

Anonymous's picture
An anonymous cow! (Christian Edstrom) (not verified)

"The bike choices of most people (myself included) are in large portion dictated by fashion.

Fast cyclists are fast because they ride a lot or do structured training. The fact that they ride bikes made of titanium alloy or carbon fibre has more to do with the marketing siren song of ""light weight!"" geared to the enthusiast community. In other words, it's hard to sell another steel bike to a guy who has a perfectly adequate steel bike, but it's easier to convince him carbon is the next big thing.

I don't see any problem buying a carbon fibre bike as a long-term bike. I think you're likely to grow tired of the bike, or enthused by another bike, prior to your wearing the bike out. Quite frankly, short of crashing, there are very few ways to just wear out a bike frame, U2 alloy aluminum bikes (DeRosa UD) notwithstanding.

Anyway, as long as the bike fits, and the designer knows what they're doing, a nice bike can be made from any material.

- Christian"

Anonymous's picture
Mark Loftis (not verified)
My bike is just as fast as it was last year...

Fast riders are usually frequent riders. Frequent riders, in general, upgrade their equipment more often. Many (most?) fast riders on Ti/Carbon frames rode a steel/aluminum frame before “upgrading” to a Ti/Carbon frames. You’ll also find that many of these fast riders still own and ride a steel/aluminum bike.
A basic steel/aluminum frame is much less expensive than the least expensive Carbon/Ti frame, is a good choice for someone purchasing their first road bike, and will not come equipped with expensive, light weight components. Carbon/Ti frames, as well as expensive steel and aluminum frames, come equipped with expensive components and are beyond the price point of many novice road cyclists. It’s the expensive, light weight components rather than the frame material that can save you a few pounds when purchasing a new bike.
I ride an off-the-shelf steel frame with 105 components. I’m not getting up the hills this year nearly as fast as I did last year and I’m fairly sure it’s not because my bike is in worse shape. It’s not about the bike. Didn’t someone already say that?

Anonymous's picture
Neile (not verified)
"""an off-the-shelf steel frame with 105 components"""

"Si, si ... some examples from $800+.

----------------

http://www.bianchiusa.com/06_imola.html

Pricey at $1499, but the right idea.

----------------

http://www.bianchiusa.com/06_brava.html

Some ""sub-105"" components but half the Imola's price. Rugged.

----------------

http://www.surlybikes.com/bikes.html

Old school tough *Very* versatile. Find a local dealer to build it with Shimano 105 ""gruppo"". [I'm overly partial to the discontinued puke green.]

----------------

Sid's on 34th Street is a good option if it's convenenient -- they sell Bianchi's and can order Surly as well as custom orders from Independent Fabrication, Waterford and Gunnar.

Bicycle Habitat in lower Manhattan can build a Surly to spec. I also like the Mercian option."

Anonymous's picture
Ted (not verified)
How long is a long time?

My 1995 OCLV frame is still very nice to ride.

I have been through a set of wheels and most of the drivetrain has been replaced, but the frame is still fine.
Knock on Carbon.

Anonymous's picture
Katie (not verified)
a intuitive look at the differences....
Anonymous's picture
bill vojtech (not verified)

Not all carbon is the same, not all Ti is the same, either. I've got both, and steel, too. Tire size and preasure make more difference than frame material.

Anonymous's picture
Walter Lindsay (not verified)
try this website

http://www2.sjsu.edu/orgs/asmtms/artcle/articl.htm

This is a relatively simple yet comprehensive explanation of bike metallurgy but slightly dated.
Of note since the article was written two noteworthy innovations have happened.
1-Introduction of Reynolds 953 steel, which may or may not pan out.
2-Advances in Carbon Fiber design and integrity, Scot Nicol who wrote the article of note has recently re-started Ibis Cycles and is building in Carbon big time.

Anonymous's picture
rob (not verified)
old bones

First of all, here is a great summary of frame materials, sans hype (and hoopla):

http://bicyclesnyc.com/page.cfm?PageID=89

And I would add that the FEEL of the frame materials is very different, and not that subtle. I have a steel bike and a CF bike, and while the steel bike feels more solid and has more (je nais se qua) zing, the cf is quicker. When you step on the gas, IT GOES. I've tried aluminum, but because of its stiffness, I feel every last bump and pebble on the road. I find it extremely uncomfortable to ride. The CF absorbs or dampens the vibrations and makes for a far more comfortable ride. If your bones are getting old, you might enjoy the carbon ride. But it probably won't last you like steel.
Good luck

Anonymous's picture
karol (not verified)
carbon fan

i too had aluminum and felt the road vibrations, which create overall fatigue on long rides in particular. so when i got a new bike i went with carbon over titanium because i had understood that titanium was light but brittle, much like aluminum. you will get light with both materials--titanium and carbon fiber--but it comes down to what you want in the feel of that light bike--i went with the buttery feel of riding on carbon.

but it's generally not as strong a material as titanium or certainly steel, the strongest. carbon frames can crack more easiliy, which is a problem for bigger male riders. so if you want light and strong, go titanium. but if you want the comfort go with carbon.

the fast bikers all have one or the other because of their lightness. that's a big plus on any climb, and you can always lose the extra pounds too and make it all the easier. btw, lighter riders actually benefit more from lighter bikes because the bike weight comprises a greater amount of their total weight (bike plus rider). it was in bicycling magazine recently.

Anonymous's picture
Carol (not verified)
Ti and Carbon Combined

A great combo to get durability and comfort is a titanium frame with carbon fork, carbon seatpost and carbon handlebar. I recently put the new Specialized carbon bar with elastomer inserts on my ti bike (I already had a carbon fork & post) and it made a huge difference in upper body comfort. It absorbs a great deal of road shock that would otherwise negatively impact my arthritic hands.

Anonymous's picture
"Chainwheel" (not verified)
Durability, Safety, and Comfort

"""A great combo to get durability and comfort is a titanium frame with carbon fork, carbon seatpost and carbon handlebar.""

I've seen several messages on this board and others about carbon seat posts slipping. Carbon handlebars have been known to fail in the TdF and other races.

There are some components for which failure will result in almost certain serious injury (e.g., bars, stems, seat posts, forks, wheels). These are not places to save weight or take risks.

Carbon forks tend to be overbuilt enough that they seldom fail unless crashed. That's not true for some other carbon (and light aluminum) parts.

If you want comfort, switch to slightly wider tires at slightly lower pressure. If you want light weight, skip the desserts.

""Chainwheel""

"

Anonymous's picture
don montalvo (not verified)
i agree

geometry/fit are most important...as far as material, my favorite is titanium frame with carbon fork/stem/seatpost. i'm sure carbon stem/handlebar is a good thing too - but not willing to spend the money ($500 is better in the bank).

don

Anonymous's picture
jeff (not verified)

i've got the same although it's aluminum with carbon. And this bike is far smoother to ride than my 1980 Puch with Reynold's 531 double butted in all the right places.

Anonymous's picture
carl cohen (not verified)

my bones were old years ago. i see stuff on the antiques road show thats younger than me. (sort of)

Anonymous's picture
fhacklander (not verified)

"what does it matter? i have a ti bike that rides wonderfully well. an al bike that curiously reminds me of the the ti. while i do not have a cf bike, i am beginning to believe that at the upper price ranges that there is a certain homogeniety (sP?) of ride experiences. in other words, it doesn't make that much difference. if you are not willling/unable to pay for a ""custom"" bike, then it strikes me that the real choice is what bike has the most of what you want, whether it be components, frame, or other tangibles/intangibles. in short, it doesn't really matter. while i think my custom seven odonata is a great bike (it's the one w/ record), my eddy merckx (the one w/ chorus) is a great bike too. still, since i don't seem to have that much time to ride any more, the 911S still provides a greater thrill factor. in short, cf, ti, al, who cares...ride what you like. i personally believe that advocates of one versus another are merely trying to justify past/prospective purchases (although a 911S is more fun than both bikes put together, unfortunately without the modicum of exercise)."

Anonymous's picture
fhacklander (not verified)

don't mean to be a stickler but je ne sais quoi is correct. apres moi le deluge is also correct for those who care as is (pardon the lack of diacritical marks) ca m'est egal...tant pis?

Anonymous's picture
josh (not verified)
another alternative

Has anyone tried bamboo?

Anonymous's picture
"Chainwheel" (not verified)
Bamboo

"""Has anyone tried bamboo?""


See:

http://www.americanbamboo.org/GeneralInfoPages/BambooBicycle.html


""Chainwheel"""

Anonymous's picture
Walter Lindsay (not verified)
Calfee-bamboo(zled)

Bamboo Bike Features:
Amazing Vibration Damping. Even better than Carbon fiber.
High performance frame. Weighs about 4 pounds but has good stiffness.
Crash tolerant. Bamboo is a lot of tougher than most people realize.
Looks cool! A work of art!

Anonymous's picture
Jonathan Shannon (not verified)
Goes well with stir fry afterwards too (nm)
Anonymous's picture
Walter Lindsay (not verified)
Bamboo-easy maintenance

Just slap on a coat of termite repellent. Repairs can be made on the road with a few nails, a rock and a piece of tree. It's completely eco-friendly and on a cold night you can burn off parts of it for warmth and still have a perfectly functional bike in the morning.

Anonymous's picture
Sebastian (not verified)
Stiffness and absorption

that carbon absords anything is a total myth. how can it be stiff AND absorb. Thats a square circle

Anonymous's picture
SAB (not verified)
Frame Materials

"I assume you want a long-lasting (durable), fairly light, stiff, road frame that handles well and is comfortable all day. In general for bike parts/frames you have three characteristics: light, cheap, and durable - you can pick any two! Eliminating the ""uber-light"" class of frames, such as a Calfee Carbon or Litespeed Ghisallo (the 2lbs or less varieties) automatically brings the costs down from outer space. And from the title of your post you want to eliminate steel and aluminum. That leaves pretty much off-the-shelf carbon or titanium frames. A good carbon frame is highly durable. A good quality titanium frame is among the most durable one can buy. Unlike carbon it can be repaired. It's mode of failure is similar to steel - it bends. It does not tend to fracture, like carbon or aluminum. It will never rust or corrode. You can get an off-the-shelf Ti frame for around $1000-2000 and even less if you shop around. Frames in that price range usually weigh around 3-4# at the absolute most, in the larger sizes. Keep in mind that everything else on the bike also effects stiffness, weight, and road feel: wheels, fork, seatpost, stem, bars, cranks, saddle... If you put some real stiff wheels, good cranks, carbon fork, and a nice comfortable saddle you'll have a sweet-riding bike. If you go for the expensive/light components (ie: ultegra or dura-ace, or equiv campy) you can have an overall bike weight in the 16-18# range easily. Good luck!"

Anonymous's picture
Bob Ross (not verified)
apparently carbon is repairable

>>A good quality titanium frame is among the most durable one can buy. Unlike carbon it can be repaired.<<

I understand that Calfee offers a frame repair service for any carbon bike, not just his own. Haven't heard the official details of *how* he repairs the frames, just speculation...but for a fee somewhere in the $4-600 range (plus shipping to...where's Calfee, Oregon?) it beats springing for a new frame every time the dog knocks your OCLV off the work stand.

Anonymous's picture
Greg (not verified)
Nervous

You people are freaking me out. As an owner of a carbon frame (Look KG 386), including a carbon seat post, with 17,000 miles on it, I have the increasing worry that it will shatter at the next big pot hole. Should I be worried now that the bike is 4-plus years old? That said, up until now the bike has been an absolute dream. The smoothest, lightest, fastest (feels like), most comfortable bike I have ever owned (rode steel and aluminum models prior). I would highly recommend carbon/this bike based on its current performance and overall consistency—that is, unless, it shatters into a million pieces and leaves me scattered across the road the next time out.

Anonymous's picture
An anonymous cow! (Christian Edstrom) (not verified)

No, Look know what they're doing. The trouble with carbon is that if you are involved in a crash, it is difficult for the layman to determine the significance of any damage.

Retire it at 50,000 miles, though and get one of those WC stripe Tom Boonen Time VXRSs.

And don't ride carbon bars or stems. Or stupid light aluminum bars and stems. Or stems with Ti hardware.

You'll probably live if you follow that advice.

- Christian

Anonymous's picture
Maggie Clarke (not verified)
Stupid aluminum bars and stems?

Why are these stupid? Why would titanium not work either?

Anonymous's picture
An anonymous cow! (Christian Edstrom) (not verified)

"Aluminum bars and stems are fine.

Stupid light aluminum bars and stems are not.

I would label stupid light bars as anything under 200 grams. Most stems under 130g I would treat with deep suspicion, (Ritchey WCS excepted) and replace often. Additionally, you should look for forged stems, rather than machined (or ""CNCed"") stems. Forging imparts a grain to the aluminum and increases the strength of the stem.

Stems with Ti hardware are very very stupid. Alloyed (3/2.5) Ti has about a half the elongation of stainless hardware, and has a tendency toward galvanic corrosion with aluminum. The strain of overtightening such hardware can easily make it break, so you must always use a torque-wrench to tighten your stem, and you must use anti-seize compound on the hardware. These types of demands seem reasonable for professional team mechanics, but I don't think the majority of club cyclists are pulling apart their bikes every 250 miles and regreasing the stem bolts, and then tightening bolts with torque wrenches.

For stems, I recommend the Ritchey WCS and Pro, the Nitto UI-5GX, and the Oval Concepts R700 (not R900). For bars, Ritchey WCS and Pro, Nitto 176 and 177.

Titanium stems are fine. Heavy, but will last forever.

- Christian
"

Anonymous's picture
Keith (not verified)

I owned a Specialized Carbon Epic for 10 years. Had over 80,000 miles on the frame. No problems whatsoever. Sold it because I wanted something different. Look is one of the better carbon bikes out there. I wouldn't fret. Ride and enjoy.

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