"I just finished my usual 30 mile off-day ride to Breezy Point.
On the way, at at the foot of the Cross Bay Bridge, I met a woman who was having some difficulty with her bike. I asked if she needed some help, and gave her a hand. In spite of my help, we were on the road within a couple of minutes. We rode together through Rockaway and parted company at the Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge (which used to be known as the Marine Park Bridge). As we rode together, we naturally had a conversation on cycling, I discovered that she had joined the NYCC and had given some thought to the 'B' or 'C' SIG this spring but said we (NYCC) have a rep of being a little bit intimidating.
Thought I'd open that up to discussion... and see how some of you feel about this.
George
p.s. after that ""intimidating"" comment, I dropped her like a bad habit.
p.p.s. I really didn't drop her (I was just kidding), but the conversation troubled me for the rest of my ride (and after the ride too)."
Intimidation??
"The requisite bikes ... the gear ... thirteen week commitments ... the double rotating pacelines ...
http://nycc.org/rides_sig_a1.shtml
We are ALL about ""intimidating"". :)
--------------------------------------
OTOH ...
""Now in its 15th year, the 5BBC is New York's friendliest bike club.""
""All club rides are led by 5BBC-trained leaders who make sure you enjoy your biking adventure safely, without getting lost, or getting stuck with mechanical troubles. We also offer bike repair and maintenance courses and have regular club meetings that feature interesting people talking about the incredibly diverse things they've done and amazing places they've gone on a bike.""
http://5bbc.org/whoweare.shtml"
"I joined NYCC in late Feb, showed up at my first ride to the b-sig, and felt quite welcomed, even though I knew no one at the ride and was a bit nervous about showing up. I had only had interaction with one leader via e-mail to let her know I would join up for her ride.
ALSO: At that first ride, there was an Englishman, who had posted that he was coming to NY and asked (without any expectation of a positive response), if anyone had a spare bike to loan. He was offered several (expensive) bikes from complete strangers, and rode on the Friday A-ride and Saturday b-ride. (Having missed the a-ride by 5 minutes)
I think that the groups might not hand out ""welcome packs"" or ""party favors"", but with very little effort on the new person's part, he/she is easily welcomed.
BTW: This is ONLY an opinion from my personal experience over that last 6 weeks."
"... and I'm that Englishman! I found NYCC to be very welcoming. I'm not new to cycling and I have had plenty of real-life experience with English cycling clubs. Some clubs can be very ""snooty"", looking down their noses at you....but NYCC was organised, friendly both on the ride and in River Edge Diner - thanks again NYCC!"
"I don't agree to this club being intimdating.I would use terms like ""structured "" and "" well organized"". In particular the SIG programs.
SB"
"When I first got into cycling, I took my 38-pound, Panzer-division hybrid and joined the 5BBC. One fine morning on a 5BBC ride, someone said, ""Everything I know about biking, I learned in the C-SIG. Try it!"" Thus, astride my hybrid, I joined the NYCC and took the C-SIG. Not too long afterwards, I was a lot stronger, a lot better to ride with, and the owner of a nice new road bike. Cycling had become a priority.
Yes, the NYCC has the (I think rightful) reputation of being way more serious, even formidable. In my 5BBC days I remember thinking, ""They split their riders into A, B, and C? Whoa..."" But on the other hand, with the SIGs the NYCC is fundamentally offering free lessons in how to become a good cyclist. This club may demand that riders know something, but we're so eager to get good riders that we'll actually sacrifice whole months of early-morning Saturdays to create them. It's about standards, and it's about the love of the sport. Maybe standards are intimidating, but they're useful. What the SIGs provide makes cycling a whole lot safer and more fun.
There's a place in this world for both clubs: one where the leaders are highly trained so the riders (theoretically) don't have to stress out, and one where the riders are highly trained so the leaders (theoretically) don't have to stress out. NYCC at its best enables cyclists to ride at many different skill levels and on many different days of the week, at its worst comes off as snooty and exclusive. 5BBC enables people to have a lot of stress-free weekend fun with virtually no attitude, but a trained cyclist might find the Point-Drop-Sweep system somewhat interminable.
So I guess the answer is to tell people about the opportunities the NYCC has to offer, and try not to sound intimidating while you're doing it. :D"
It depends on who you ride with. I find the 'A' riders intimidating (most of them anyway), a handful of 'B' riders intimidating, but most not, and the 'C' riders anything but intimidating.
I wouldnt say well organized or even disciplined. Maybe anal. I've joined the club in January and yet to go on a ride. I cant commit to the SIG, and there are no other rides out there. Nyack? I've been there, done that one. I think the whole obsession with A,B,C --and it really is a weird obsession - has created a sad caste system. But, hey, that's my opinion, and I'm only a member of four other bicycle clubs.
"In the summer, the club hosts a number of ""All Class"" and ""newcomer"" rides that are intended to welcome people of all levels and provide opportunities to socialize with club members of all different riding levels. This also can happen at monthly club meetings and social events. I've never had someone ask me what ""caste"" I belong to at such events. Perhaps we should have a newcomer ride a bit earlier in the season (probably on a much smaller scale). And yes, I'd be willing to lead a group, if we did it on a Sunday during SIG season (hoping the SIG would not get bumped to Sunday!)"
I don't think the club is intimidating at all, quite the opposite. Over the four years I've ridden with the club, I have always found club members and ride leaders to be very welcoming, inclusive, friendly, supportive, and encouraging. It's a great club! I started riding with the club as a C rider and am now an A rider so my observations about the club come from riding at all levels.
Do we stress cooperative riding skills and safety? Definitely. But intimidating? I don't think so.
"I started with the ""A"" riders many years ago– I'm working on down to ""C."" I was not intimidated, but many friends have felt intimidated, especially by the ""A"" group.
Since we're not talking about physical intimidation, (threats of violence), I think they're being silly. Just don't buy into the caste system, (it exists, but it's b.s.), and laugh at those who get caught up in it. And make sure the titanium is polished.
Oh, by the way, if you don't break the club into A, B and C groups, everyone ends up doing C rides.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042876/"
George, no way! I'm with Steve, NYCC is well organized and structured but in a way that's enjoyable for everyone. Lots of training options and leeway for riders of different experience, a club with no attitudes that welcomes everyone, and lots of very committed leaders who make things happen. Well, after all you join a club to train, have a little discipline... I guess, which is different than looking just for people to ride with. So maybe that's the initimidation factor... don't lose sleep over it. Though, very nice of you, George, to give this women a helping hand. There's hope next time I have a flat and am out by myself :) Katrin
I don't think that intimidation is necessarily a bad thing. I've used it to good effect when listing rides to discourage people from attending a ride that would be over their abilities. I just found it rather interesting and thought provoking that a new member might feel overly intimidated as to not join any rides.
Quite frankly, it (the club) should be organized and structured. While it is unfortunate that some riders might be intimidated by this, I can certainly live with that. But is this something we (as a group) would want a new 'C' or 'B' rider to feel even before their first ride...
George
Many of our regular season rides are very welcoming, relaxed and lots of fun. But in the spring, we now have 4 SIGs and 5 STS groups. This occupies about 100 of our regular ride leaders for almost 3 months. Therefore there are very few regular rides during March, April and May. It's no wonder we seem to be too structured and perhaps intimidating.
I believe the SIGs are very important. They do teach individual and group riding skills, and anyone who sticks with the program becomes a better, stronger cyclist. The STS rides provide a structured, though less formal, training series for people who have already done a SIG or who come to the club with previous cycling experience. This is also an important service provided by the club. But we then have no rides for the casual weekend rider.
We've tried to do ride leader training in the past, but very few people have attended those sessions. So how do we promote new ride leaders? Why don't more poeple sign up to lead?
Once again, I encourage anyone who hasn't done so to give it a try. If you don't know where to start, contact me or one of the ride coordinators. If it's your ride, it's bound to be perfect for you!
Interesting and important thread, this.
Carol's post made me realize why i don't lead more rides than i do (I've led two so far this year). This is that, as a leader of moderate skill but not vast experience, i am actually intimidated by some of the people who show up to ride. And just look at the vitriol presently being hurled at some of our most conscientious leaders.
Why should we give the impression that a regular club ride is what you do when you're NOT in the mood for a focused and improving experience? If you want to go at your own pace or wear your headphones or play chicken in traffic, don't expect to be made welcome on a club ride!
Because it’s no fun when:
-people show up for a February A-19 ride and even though we are maintaining an average pace between 15 and 16 they start to race, and complain that it’s too slow. (Eventually they go their own way, which is the smart choice, but it's hardly thanks for my having motivated them to get out of bed on a cold morning in the first place.)
-people on my ride bunch up at lights and block cars and are generally a mess.
-people race ahead of the leader and miss the turn and then get upset if the rest of us don't wait.
-you get a rift between the careless riders and the self-righteous safety-niks who call out every pebble and car in the road in order to make their point.
My point is that the best thing about our club is that it fosters discipline and safety, in the context of the enjoyment we all get from riding our bikes. Frankly, i feel that people SHOULD know that something is expected of them when they show up for a club ride. Even the non-STS and non-SIG leaders should feel empowered to maintain discipline in their ranks. I prefer to lead by example but sometimes people need to be nudged, and I think this should always be the ride-leader’s prerogative. Many of our leaders do this very well -- diplomatically too -- and others are more laissez-faire. But if we are called names and generally discouraged by the pedaling public from maintaining certain standards, then it’s no wonder more of us don’t step up.
Perhaps we should have a system denoting the level of skill and order expected of people on an open club ride. Like A, B, C, or something. . . . . . I didn’t mean to get sarcastic, but really, I think it’s dangerous to give the impression that a pick-up ride has more relaxed standards than a series ride.
The NYCC is not hurting for popularity. I don’t think we should worry if a handful of people think we are too intimidating, or whatever else you might call something that is an opportunity to stretch and learn. We should take this as a reminder of what we are best set-up to do: breed safe and skilled cyclists and send them out into the world to lead safe and elegant rides. Now THAT is fun.
"""Because it’s no fun when:
-people show up for a February A-19 ride and even though we are maintaining an average pace between 15 and 16 they start to race, and complain that it’s too slow. (Eventually they go their own way, which is the smart choice, but it's hardly thanks for my having motivated them to get out of bed on a cold morning in the first place.)""
It's also no fun when you show up for an A-19 ride expecting it to travel at 19 mph on the flats, as advertised, and it does not. Just because you're an A19 rider in July does not mean you are one in February.
I don't know which ride(s) this is referring to, so this isn't a direct reply about any rides you've lead, but ""racing"" at the 19 mph pace is just what should be happening, even in Feb.
The club has an EXCELLENT classification system which allows a ride to be classified by letter and number. The explanation of this is in at least the March bulletin and many would be well served by (re)reading it. This can of course be annotated in the ride description.
For example, Richard Rosenthal does a great job of listing the ride as ""A"", indicating few stops and pacelining, and his current speed. He then describes how fast he intends to go up the hills, which is slower than the flat speed would assume. You know exactly what you're getting: A-19 with a slower final avg speed because hills are taken in a relaxed manner.
The club as I've seen it is really welcoming and non-intimidating, unless I'm in over my head. It's not a 'caste' system, but recognizing your actual abilities and interests when listing or joining a ride would really make it a more fun and welcoming environment.
Again, this is not directed solely at you Cat, more of a general reply to everything I read above."
"Thanks for your reply, and others for theirs.
I'm not sure i agree with your comment:
I don't know which ride(s) this is referring to, so this isn't a direct reply about any rides you've lead, but ""racing"" at the 19 mph pace is just what should be happening, even in Feb.
Who said ANY club ride is about racing? I am dying to hear what others have to say about this. I thought riding was riding and racing was racing and that an NYCC ride is meant to be cooperative, not competitive (in theory, at least).
And to clarify: an average pace of 15-16 mph is perfectly appropriate for an A-19 ride. Indeed the overall average is a much better way to assess the speed of a ride, since there are so many factors that affect speed on the flats. Indeed it's hard to precisely control the average speed, since it will be affected by number of stop lights, weather, and other things.
I am conscious of these factors, and also of my personal style in leading rides. I like to start off a little under pace, till as a group we're warmed up. I also try to accelerate slowly from lights and such. Once i feel everyone is happy with the pace and things are flowing well, we'll cook a little. I believe that even with this fluctuation my rides keep close to the advertised pace. I do take into account the feelings of the group and try to keep people happy -- sometimes this is to suggest that they ride in a different category.
Even with our classification system, more sophisticated than most, i believe there is a certain amount of subjectivity. We who ride regularly learn each leader's styles and ride with the people who we click with. Newcomers have to take us as we are. Welcome!"
"I should have been more clear. I simply meant that if someone or group was riding at 19 mph on the flats (riding at the advertised pace), they were 'right'. Those that aren't keeping up with the advertised pace may perceive this as racing, but it's not. (Edit: Taking off at lights and corners and nonsense like that is racing and jerky, but is a separate issue.)
As it goes, overall average is not a very good way of assessing the speed of a ride. The location of the start (having to weave through manhattan vs just meeting at the bridge), the route (hills, traffic, lights), and other factors can have a HUGE effect on the avg speed. A 16 mph avg speed ride that starts at the boathouse and climbs river road, bradley, clausland, the N-S approach to Nyack and every hill in between is a vastly different ride than the same distance and avg speed ride that starts at GWB and toodles around 505 and such. In the first case, you need to be moving at 19 or so on the flats to counteract all the hills and weaving through manhattan. In the second, somewhere just north of 17 on the flats should get you by. Two very different rides, same avg speed.
As you can see, I completely agree that it's hard to control the avg speed. That's why the system of classification using the speed on the flats works well. For the most part, riders who can/do/will avg a certain speed on the flats will climb and descend in a narrow enough band to keep a ride cohesive.
When a member joins a ride, they have to be able to take on faith that the ride will be close to advertised. Many, probably most, are. I know that that Hogwich series delivered, and RR rides do too.
""We who ride regularly"" also remember those ""we"" have ridden with and do ""ride with the people who we click with"". But it's not always possible and it's nice to make new friends."
">""We who ride regularly"" also remember those ""we"" have ridden with and do ""ride with the people who we click with"". <
Actually, that's how a typically a ride with a bunch of friends usually works. Everyone knows the ""leader"" and everyone else. There's no doubt as to the speed or style of riding of the group! There's not even a need for any ""classification"" at all.
I'm not so sure that's what's expected of a ""club"" ride, where a club member can reasonably expect to come to a ride of certain classification and fit right in."
"I'm one of the guilty parties in Cat's post above, I believe.
I think we had quite different perceptions of the pace of the February ride I think you are referring to (and what happened on it). Both I and some others I knew on the ride registered 15-16 generally on the flats, and I had 12.8 average when we departed from the ride (at about 20 miles). We stuck with the group throughout the time, except for one time toward the end when I hopped off the front to chase down and check with a couple of riders who seemed to be heading off). In any case, the pace of the ride was not what we had bargained for, so we let the ride leader know we were heading off and did. But I've been concerned since then that the leader was unhappy about the whole affair, and I'm sorry it may have lessened your interest in leading rides.
I do think that the low end of the A ride classification system seems to be somewhat of a problem. If someone is not stopping much and wants to list something as an ""A"" ride but go at a more moderate pace, why not an A-15 or A-16 (or lower)? As Richard Rosenthal has said, and Stephen Crowe ended up agreeing (on another thread), as long as there is truth in advertising, seems like it might be good to just list rides like this one in a lower range.
David
P.S. Much appreciation goes to any leader who goes to the trouble to figure out, list and lead a ride, but I did not need this ride to get out on a February morning. If I had known it would run at a 15-16 pace, I would have been _most_ happy to figure out an alternative."
As David notes, I do think that we as a club should give our leaders a wide range of flexibility in how to classify their rides.
However, I'm not sure that we need an A-15 or an A-16 category. Rather, it may be more useful for leaders to simply stick to the club guidelines. Do the self-test given on our web site for a reality check. If your results say you're a 17mph rider, call your rides a B-17 until you get back up to speed. Going a long distance, riding in a paceline and taking short breaks are all strategies that many of our B ride leaders employ with great success.
If you're typically an A rider who is getting back into shape, there shouldn't be any stigma to leading B rides while you're in training for the season.
I'm probably one of the rare riders in the club who enjoys going on both A and B rides. I have a lot of friends who like to go on A rides and a lot of friends who like to go on B rides. I hope to lead some of each this summer, so I can ride different bikes that I own and enjoy the company of my friends, who have different riding speeds.
On a final note, as one of the riders who split off with David on Cat's ride, I can honestly say that the group who split off hadn't meant to cause any disharmony on the ride or to intimidate any of the other riders or the ride leader. We simply felt it was slower than the advertised pace. While I'm all for warming up slowly, taking off slowly from stop lights, and riding cooperatively as a group, I do think that an A ride should reach its advertised pace by mile 20, which is where we broke off from the group. If you've ridden 20 miles and haven't reached your target pace of A19 on the flats, which is really the bottom of the A range, I think it's fair to ask if it's truly an A ride.
"""But is this something we (as a group) would want a new 'C' or 'B' rider to feel even before their first ride...""
Personally, I say a qualified YES.
For example, I don't remember any rides listed for under 35 miles (during regular season), which, to the rest of the world, is a super-human distance!
I joined the club, many moons ago, as a B rider. My first ride was with the C and was VERY relaxing. I moved up to the B immediately, which I happily remain for all these years. I've also done a few 5BBC rides on that very first year. I ultimately decided NYCC was more to my taste. That is, to RIDE. Everything else is just gravy.
(there're times I wish for more of those ""gravy"", but I won't give up 'the ride' for those extras)
Compare to 5BBC, NYCC does much less hand-holding during a ride. With the exception of the SIG, riders who show up to ride are expected to be able to move at the advertised pace, with only the advertised stops. Even in the event of machanical, though fellow riders are often helpful, the chief resposibility of getting going again is still on the owner of the bike.
This club (i.e. most of its memebers) is not really ready to help clue-less beginer who come to rides with under-inflated tires with no pump, brakes rubbing and chains clanking away. The kind of hand-holding and waiting around during some of the 5BBC rides are will to do will probably drive many of NYCC's members out of the club at A+ pace! ;o)
My suggestion to my want-to-be bike owner friends are they start with 5BBC. And when they got to the point of ready to join NYCC, they'll know it (or others in 5BBC would also point that out to them). That advice would probably be the suitable one for the woman you've met, George."
meeting the club members face to face is not nearly as intimidating as posting on the message board.
many a posts are lamb basted simply for misspelled words or improper use of noun/verb subject agreements with no regard as to the intent of the posting.
that to me is more intimidating than an A, B or C classification. but then again i'm not the type of person that evaluates a rider based on speed, brand of steed or spelling for that matter.....
"Everyone is going to have different expectations. I'm sure there are some beginning riders who are intimidated by 5BBC. By the same token, there are very serious riders who think the hardest, fastest NYCC rides are not even a good warm-up.
We can't be all things to all people. I think we have to accept the fact that some people will be intimidated by our rides and some will look down on them. My guess is there are plenty of people in the middle. After all, we are the largest recreational cycling club in the Northeast, maybe the U.S.
To the gentleman who referred to our classifications as a ""caste"" system, I disagree most strenusously. I think most people prefer to ride with people of similar abilities. The problem becomes when people interpret the classification as a ""caste"" system. One solution might be to do away A, B and C - which I'm sure most everyone relates to the grading system at school - and use, say, colors: red = A, blue = B, greeen = C. Hmmm, maybe that wouldn't work either. The blues might feel stigmatized because they think the reds look down on them. And the greens? Fugetaboutit.
The ride classifications are merely to help members find compatible riding partners, not to create a club hierarchy. If you enjoy riding with the people within your classification why should you care whether it's called A, B, C, red, blue, green, chartreuse..."
"Funny enough, when I lived out in San Francisco Bay Area, the clubs there also use letters to designate speed. Only that their ""caste"" goes from A to E, with A being the slowest!"
"As a fairly new member of the NYCC and a new ""serious"" cyclist, I've been following this chain with interest. When I joined the club last year, I was fortunate enough to participate in the C-SIG. The group leaders were welcoming, encouraging and patient. They encouraged me not to quit after my first, disasterous, ride. At the B-SIG self time ride this year I was also tempted to quit, but decided to persevere (no comments about the trend.) The B-SIG leaders have been just as welcoming and encouraging and I consider myself fortunate to have found such a great group of people to ride with. We're all out to enjoy a sport we love and to ride with a group of like minded people.
As far as the 5BBC goes, they're also a very nice group of people. I participated in a ride last summer to Coney Island and decided to never ride with them again.In fairness to the 5BBC, it was probably much larger group than any NYCC ride. They were certainly a very welcoming group, but I couldn't believe it when people arrived at the meeting spot. There were several riders with no helmets (wouldn't be my choice, but to each his own), a few with i-pods and one woman in sandals (no joke.) I never witnessed such unsafe riding in my life and also realize that this had nothing to do with the club or the ride leaders. I just don't think it would go on at a NYCC ride. Several of my C-SIG friends and I decided to part ways with them after Coney Island and I'm sure that was the right decision.
Nothing is perfect and the NYCC isn't perfect either. I certainly appreciate the dedication of the SIG and other ride leaders. I'm sure it would be much easier for them to round up a few friends and head out on a ride. Instead, they have to deal with keeping a group together, mechanicals and provide overall support. They're probably not thanked enough. I appreciate those who take to time to help others become better bikers and enjoy a truly wonderful sport.
No disrespect towards the 5BBC, but I'll take the NYCC any day. Once again, intimidation is in the eye of the beholder."
"I would consider myself to be an example of using the different clubs at various points in my riding development.
About 12 years ago, I started doing 5BBC rides on an old 10 speed, gained confidence, did longer, harder rides, bought a road bike. I took their leadership course, but had a generally negative experience with that, and soon after left the 5BBC. The 5BBC is a great beginner-level club, but it doesn't take much in the way of fitness or riding skill to be ""top banana."" I got tired of the point drop sweep system (as a strong rider, you spend a lot of time standing on the side of the road, waiting for the 9-mph riders), as well as the short distances and the time it took to do those distances.
The NYCC seemed an intimidating club at a distance, but the first ride (a B ride) I went on was a great experience because the leader (was it Damon Hart?) took pity on me and didn't drop me like a stone. Not long after, I was attempting A rides and was told that I needed to do the A-SIG if I wanted to do paceline rides(this pissed me off at the time, but it was necessary). I took the SIG, got dropped more than once, kept riding, led rides, and was a SIG leader. Then I realized that the next challenge was racing.
Several years later, I am still racing. I've kept my NYCC membership, but I don't really have much desire to do a club ride. Why?
1. When I am not racing, I prefer to ride with a small group of people I know, not a larger group where I have to be hyper-vigilant.
2. Club rides, especially the A rides, seem to be more about being ""racer-like"" without actually racing. Riders try to beat each other up hills, peel out from lights, and ramp up the speed too soon after the start and after lunch. Whatever happened to the concept of cooperative pacelining?
3. I rarely make long stops in the middle of rides. Having breakfast at the Skylark in January is enjoyable, except for hate freezing my a** off when it's time to get back on the bike. You will see me hanging at the Runcible a few times a year, on those rare non-race weekends, sitting on the curb, enjoying the sun.
I like what the club does (expanded SIG series, the STS series), but it's just not my cup of tea nowadays.
More to the original point, is the club intimidating? Maybe, but intimidation can be a good thing sometimes. Leaders are supposed to assist others, but they aren't Mother Teresa on Two Wheels, with bottomless reserves of patience and understanding. (Referring to another thread, if I were a leader, and someone showed up on a bike with aerobars and wearing earbuds, I'd probably give him the evil eye, too.)"
"excellent post. when i raced, i preferred to do my easy non-race-day rides with other racers. we didn't go hard. we went easy. we were diciplined. i agree totally about the faster club riders. most don't realize there's another level they can raise themselves to...race! instead, they ride with the nycc, busting pace, posing and trying to show each other up. some of them would be able to keep up with the racing field...some wouldn't. the fact is, one can satisfy their ego riding off the front with the nycc. on the other hand, put those guys in a race and half of them stick around and get better...the other half go back to the nycc and bust pace again.
i'm happy to keep up with b-rides. :)
don (a former cat3 racer)
responding to:
I would consider myself to be an example of using the different clubs at various points in my riding development.
About 12 years ago, I started doing 5BBC rides on an old 10 speed, gained confidence, did longer, harder rides, bought a road bike. I took their leadership course, but had a generally negative experience with that, and soon after left the 5BBC. The 5BBC is a great beginner-level club, but it doesn't take much in the way of fitness or riding skill to be ""top banana."" I got tired of the point drop sweep system (as a strong rider, you spend a lot of time standing on the side of the road, waiting for the 9-mph riders), as well as the short distances and the time it took to do those distances.
The NYCC seemed an intimidating club at a distance, but the first ride (a B ride) I went on was a great experience because the leader (was it Damon Hart?) took pity on me and didn't drop me like a stone. Not long after, I was attempting A rides and was told that I needed to do the A-SIG if I wanted to do paceline rides(this pissed me off at the time, but it was necessary). I took the SIG, got dropped more than once, kept riding, led rides, and was a SIG leader. Then I realized that the next challenge was racing.
Several years later, I am still racing. I've kept my NYCC membership, but I don't really have much desire to do a club ride. Why?
1. When I am not racing, I prefer to ride with a small group of people I know, not a larger group where I have to be hyper-vigilant.
2. Club rides, especially the A rides, seem to be more about being ""racer-like"" without actually racing. Riders try to beat each other up hills, peel out from lights, and ramp up the speed too soon after the start and after lunch. Whatever happened to the concept of cooperative pacelining?
3. I rarely make long stops in the middle of rides. Having breakfast at the Skylark in January is enjoyable, except for hate freezing my a** off when it's time to get back on the bike. You will see me hanging at the Runcible a few times a year, on those rare non-race weekends, sitting on the curb, enjoying the sun.
I like what the club does (expanded SIG series, the STS series), but it's just not my cup of tea nowadays.
More to the original point, is the club intimidating? Maybe, but intimidation can be a good thing sometimes. Leaders are supposed to assist others, but they aren't Mother Teresa on Two Wheels, with bottomless reserves of patience and understanding. (Referring to another thread, if I were a leader, and someone showed up on a bike with aerobars and wearing earbuds, I'd probably give him the evil eye, too.)"
"in·tim·i·date
P Pronunciation Key (n-tm-dt)
tr.v. in·tim·i·dat·ed, in·tim·i·dat·ing, in·tim·i·dates
1. To make timid; fill with fear.
2. To coerce or inhibit by or as if by threats.
[Medieval Latin intimidre, intimidt- : Latin in-, causative pref.; see in-2 + Latin timidus, timid; see timid.]
in·timi·dating·ly adv.
in·timi·dation n.
in·timi·dator n.
Synonyms: intimidate, browbeat, bulldoze, cow, 2bully, 1bludgeon
These verbs all mean to frighten into submission, compliance, or acquiescence. Intimidate implies the presence or operation of a fear-inspiring force: “It [atomic energy] may intimidate the human race into bringing order into its international affairs” (Albert Einstein). Browbeat suggests the persistent application of highhanded, disdainful, or imperious tactics: browbeating a witness. Bulldoze connotes the leveling of all spirit of opposition: was bulldozed into hiring an unacceptable candidate. Cow implies bringing out an abject state of timorousness and often demoralization: a dog that was cowed by abuse. To bully is to intimidate through blustering, domineering, or threatening behavior: workers who were bullied into accepting a poor contract. Bludgeon suggests the use of grossly aggressive or combative methods: had to be bludgeoned into fulfilling his duties.
intimidating
adj : discouraging through fear [syn: daunting]
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http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=intimidating"
"To Cat:
who says NYCC's job is to ""breed safe and skilled cyclists and send them out into the world to lead safe and elegant rides.""
Well, if you think that aggressive cyclists are safe and skilled. You dont learn those things in a paceline. I'd suggest offering a safety training course on good road manners, or better yet take the 5BBC leadership course."
To those who think that the 5BBC's leadership course is all about safety:
Our group's day trip involved riding to Paragon, in Secaucus. The forecast was for rain throughout the day. It was raining as we approached the GWB, on our way out of town, and I urged the leaders to rethink the decision to embark on the trip. Sure enough, it rained all day. Due to various bad navigational decisions, delays, and multiple flats and mechanicals, as well as the time spent shopping at Paragon, we were still in NJ at dusk. I remember the lot of us seeking shelter under someone's front overhang in Fort Lee for something like an hour (maybe it was less, but it felt longer). We didn't get back into the city over the GWB until well after dark, still in the rain.
If the goal of this course was to instill safety, then it was an obvious failure. One basic tenet of bike safety is, When is it appropriate to go out on a ride? (Especially when you are escorting riders who don't have as much experience as you do.) That was probably my worst day on the bike (even now, over 10 years later), and was one of the things that soured me on the 5BBC.
Just because ONE leader makes ONE bad decision, the whole group is dangerous?
What happened to your free will and good sense? Were you forced at gun-point by the leader to go when you thought it was better not to?
"Josh Go writes:
I'd suggest offering a safety training course on good road manners...
The NYCC already offers such a course -- one of the SIGs. Yes, more about safety and good road manners is taught in the C-SIG, the B-SIG, and the A-19 SIG than in the A-Classic SIG, but that's probably because most of the riders who've reached the Classic stage have already passed through one of the slower SIGs and are expected to already have those skills.
And the SIGs do teach safe paceline riding. Have you been a SIG graduate, Josh?
For many club members who've done one of the SIGs, ""safe and elegant rides"" are, if not expected, desired -- especially when they're the leader on a non-SIG ride at some other time.
David, who took the aforementioned 5BBC leadership course in the mid 1990s but has learned far more about safe cycling in the B-SIG than in that course and who also finds this one of the most fascinating threads on this message board in a long time"
As a leader in the SIG and leading other rides for the NYCC throughout the year, I have learned a great deal from this thread. Perhaps all the leaders should take an introspective look at how we conduct ourselves and welcome people, especially when meeting at the beginning of the ride. I think we tend to stick to our cliques and we do need to make people we don't know as well feel comfortable on our rides. If we are welcoming and warm, we don't need to change anything but if otherwise, maybe we can be more inviting.
I started riding with 5BBC about 10 years ago. As a beginning rider it was a wonderful experience. I had had a mountain bike at the time. 5BBC welcomed me with open arms. Later I bought a road bike and became one of their leaders(after taking their leadership course).
Six years ago I started riding with NYCC. I wanted a club that would help me grow as a cyclist. 5BBC is a very maternal club. Their Point Drop Sweep method of riding only contributes to mediocrity. I participated in the A19 SIG about 5 years ago. I found it a chalanging, well run and made me stretch as cyclist.
I am proud that NYCC offers so many different groups to ride with. I am presently an Audax leader. If I had stayed with 5BBC I would still be on some street corner, pointing, waiting for my group.
Actually, Harvey, the PDS system has made me an excellent sprinter. In fact a lot of younger cyclists use it to train. It's particularly awesome on a fixed.
Okay, maybe you just don't know any better, but I think you're talking about intervals, not sprinting. If you want to sprint on a fixed, do it at the track at Kissena. They offer racing throughout the summer. You'll actually learn something, and you won't be a danger to yourself and others on the road (true sprinting on an open road on a fixed sounds like a nice way to hurt yourself).
If I thought whatever I did on the road, former 5bbc member, was a danger to myself and anyone else, I wouldnt do it. But I have a mirror, which -- I'll bet -- hardly anyone at NYCC uses on rides these days. That helps my speed, safety, and confidence on the road. Of course it adds a few ounces, but I'm used to carrying 50 lbs and portaging up stairs, etc., during the week.
BTW, the credo of 5BBC is precisely to cycle in all weather, and in all terrains. That's what makes them an all-around bike club. So I'm sorry you were put off by a little foul weather. One of the young trainees in the youth program commented to me that you guys and gals were a little sheepish at the first sign of foul weather, like panicing at a little water in the seat tube. This high school student found that amusing.
As far as 5BBC riding in all weather, i believe today's ride was cancelled due to weather. Correct me if i am wrong but most ride leader post the weather cancellation requirement for their rides. A lot of the 5 BBC rides are within the areas served by subways, so inclement weather can be handled by bailing out. Most NYCC rides go over the GWB or into Westchester where there are no subways to bail out.. I myself consider riding in the rain in this area much more dangerous than riding without a helmet. Vehicles have even less visibility of the cyclist due to worn windshield wipers and dirty windshields. Their rear and side windows are fogged up. If they have slightly worn tires they won't stop well in slick rain surfaces. Automobile drivers will not reduce speed due to poor visvility and braking conditions.
"WOW!!! This is by far the longest thread I've ever started on the MB! And it's exactly what I hoped would happen when I made the original posting. Many of you seem to have similar feelings to what I experienced on Sunday. Some very valid points were made regarding the ""attitude"" that may put off some people riding with us. I intend to incorporate some of the suggestions you folks have made on my own rides.
Thanks,
George"
"This is funny. I never get into blogs or online chats or message boards, but somehow the nycc has me reading long threads like never before. I suppose it's because I'm really into this club, even though I'm not a ""club"" kind of person. I got into the club three years ago because I wanted to do an Ironman and didn't feel like riding to Bear Mountain alone.
That summer, I tried a few B17 rides and then went for an A20 century to Bear Mountain. Yeah, I got dropped. No, I didn't have paceline skills. But it motivated me to get faster and learn how to ride right.
I did the A19 Sig last year, and yes it's intimidating, even if you are a good athlete. (I've done four marathons and two Ironman triathlons. I don't suck). But come on, bikers, it's intimidating.
There's a lot to learn--pacelining, cadence, pedal stroke, temp-appropriate clothing, proper nutrition, mechanics, maintenance--tires, lubes, blah blah blah...And if you screw up, you're affecting everyone's ride. This does not happen in running, swimming, triathlon--individual sports.
But the thing is, you do the Sig and you get skills and it becomes less intimidating. And then you have to raise the ante and get intimidated all over again. I'm doing the A Classic Sig now and I've watched the group shrink form 60 to about 35. And were are down to a handful of women siggies.
Um, that's intimidating, but the right kind. It makes you rise to the occasion--train, clean the chain, check the tires, drink, eat, sleep. And yes, it's racer-like without racing, which is fine with me. (I race in triathlons instead.)
The thing is, I know I would not be the rider I am today without the sig leaders in the A19 and A Classic. They are patient and generous and demanding, and yeah, sometimes a little indimidating. But that's what has made me into a better and better biker. Isn't that what it's all about?
Karol"
"Skills, what skills?
Every A SIG ""grad"" pats themselves on the back over all the ""skills"" they've learned, but all I see are big, erratic, sloppy groups of newbies oozing all over the road like an oil slick.
Funny story. I showed up at the boathouse one day last spring to see if any familiar faces were around. I asked if any rides were going out. Oh yes, but it's an STS ride, only for SIG grads, the leader said. Did I do the SIG? I answered no, and was told I couldn't come along.
I should've showed 'em my USCF Cat 3, but they probably wouldn't know what it was.
"
Anyone can get to Cat 3... Look at VICTOR CHAN ;-)
don't even start to compare the NYCC to cat 3.
Mike, what you see now is the first five-six weeks of the Sig, and yeah, you see a mess. It was daunting to me, as I always rode alone or with on other cyclist--thus my lack of group riding skills. But by the end of the three month program (March-May) it's amazing how tight the riders become. And that creates a feeling of safety and comfort.
Generally, if someone has done a Sig they have adequeate group riding skills and safety etiquitte. And that way the STS leaders don't have to take the risk of letting someone into the group who may or may not follow the club's safety culture, regardless of their fitness level or race category.
I wouldn't rule out a Sig, entirely. There's a guy in the A Classic who tends to hammer at 28mph on the flats and he's incredibly skilled, as well. I don't think he needs the Sig, clearly, but now that he's doing it he can do the STS A23 next year, if he wants.
It's also a great way to get in shape early in the season. Then again, if a cruising speed of 20-23mph, give or take, is too slow for you then you probably would be frustrated in the A Classic Sig. But if not, you will generally find already-skilled riders and you might enjoy it.
Unfortunatley, it will have to wait till next year. It begins the first Saturday of March. You can only miss twice, otherwise you're out, and that includes joining late and missing the first two weekends. I know really fast cyclists who can't do it because of that commitment alone.
And don't forget Mike, this post began because somebody ran into a woman on her bike who had a mechanical and said the NYCC was intimidating. I'm a good athlete, and I got a little intimidated. You're a racer and they shut you down.
I think it's fair to say the club can be intimidating, for a range of reasons, but once you are a Sig graduate and you know the ropes it's a lot of fun. It's not cliquish like a lot of clubs. Everyone is welcome, as long as you follow the rules--do the Sig, no aero bars, etc...
Also, once the Sig ends there is an A20-plus ride, usually a century, every Saturday open to all members. It goes all through the fall, too. That's a really good one to do.
Hope this helps.
Karol
As a new rider I guess we do feel a little intimidated by leaders etc who seem to know what they are doing and people who are familiar with every one else. There is a tendency to look from the outside and view this as elitist. In my own experience as a foreigner trying something new in a new city I found the NYCC people very friendly and encouraging.
I am taking the A-Sig this year and I am learning a lot about group rides, etiquette and safety. One thing I learned (that is not neccesarily part of the curriculum) is that the safest ride is the one with people you know and have riden often with before and trust. It seems to me that safety is every ones own responsibility. The Sig does give a lot of people a chance to learn group riding and bike skills they would not otherwise learn elsewhere, (ever tried learning them from a book? or by watching cycle races on TV?) however correct me if I'm wrong but it is also intended to give people the confidence to step up and lead rides themselves, which is what this club is all about.
For the people who want to race and enjoy all the fun and excitement that goes with going fast? Check out the CRCA, a few early morning races in CP will leave you happy to tuck in to the pack on NYCC rides for long easy recovery or base miles.
Whats intimidating is dealing with NY City bike shops !
"I joined this club after riding with a very good racing team and club in another city and I've noticed that people in the NYCC are very nice and helpful, but there are some who are a little cocky because they percieve themselves to be ""good"" group riders. I felt a little intimidated on my first ride, because of the posturing by certain members of the group, despite being very confident in my skills and prior coaching. If I feel that way,I can imagine how others feel."
"Very good point.
The club as a whole is very welcoming. Most the SIG leaders, when I met them outside of SIG, are also very helpful. But occasionally, a few of the SIG graduates can be pathetically arrogant! They think they've graduated from the SIG and THEY KNOW IT ALL.
Because the SIGs requires the graduates to lead at least two rides the rest of the season. It's not unusual to have fresh ride leaders who're recent SIG graduate but little skill in LEADING rides. Yet sometimes a few of them thought their way is the ONLY way. That can be very frustrating to other, equally experienced riders, and downright intimidating to lesser experienced new members.
My recommendation to every newbie is always ""if you don't like your first club ride, try another one"" before giving up. It would be a waste to write off a whole club just because of one poor leader."
"Funny story. I showed up at the boathouse one day last spring to see if any familiar faces were around. I asked if any rides were going out. Oh yes, but it's an STS ride, only for SIG grads, the leader said. Did I do the SIG? I answered no, and was told I couldn't come along.
I should've showed 'em my USCF Cat 3, but they probably wouldn't know what it was.
________________________
Your Cat 3 card doesn't make you a safe rider nor does it impress me. You dont need cooperative riding skills in racing. It's an individual sport unless you're doing a team time trial. When I'm riding at 20mph and am less than a foot behind someone's wheel in a paceline, I want them to have good group riding skills. And when they dont, umm....well....I feel, pardon the use of the word but, ""intimidated"" as Neile defined it. In lay terms...scared shi**less. One wrong move and the group goes down like a house of cards. So, it's comforting to know that someone has completed a SIG and has a sense of what it means to ride with a group and all that it offers in the way of safety."
With due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. Although Cat 3 does not automatically make someone a safe rider, racing most certainly does require cooperative riding skills - much more so than NYCC rides. And by the way, bike racing is a team sport.
there are some squirrely riders in racing...but not nearly as many as in the nycc/5bbc/libc, etc. the fact of the matter is, if you're a squirrely rider, you'll probably do fine in a social club...but you'll be an outcast in no time in a race environment. racers don't want to take unnecessary risk, especially when you're elbow to elbow going 30+ for miles. i've seen nycc riders go down after overlapping wheels (something racers are all too familiar with and know how to handle) or accidentally bumping into someone (another normal race occurrance).
do you want to get good? join the sig - it's like basic training. want to get mo' good? join the uscf/crca and race. two totally different skill levels - some overlapping of skills, but racing is in it's own class with respect to bike handling.
don
