Thanks to everyone who sent well wishes after the crash Gerald and I had on Saturday. Also much thanks to whomever called 911 and my emergency contact.
My face took the full force of the impact. I have a cut near my eye and a deep laceration that went completely through above the lip. Both the eye and the lip required stitches that come out on Friday. When I fell, I had severe neck and shoulder pain. The hospital took x-rays and a cat scan and I have no neck or spinal injuries and no fractures or breaks. I have a painful muscle sprain (whiplash) that is going to take some time to work out.
As can be imagined, my face and neck was very swollen following the fall. A few days later, almost all swelling is now gone. I'll have bruises for a couple of weeks and get a better sense on Friday when the stitches are removed as to how much scarring there will be.
Luckily I have no breaks and no lower body injuries. I am just banged up but my injuries should not require any kind of rehab.
Thanks to everyone who sent well wishes and offered to help. As for my bike, I will arrange to pick it up on Friday from NJ when I go to visit the plastic surgeon. Sorry Gerry but I cannot pick up your bike also. My bike is not coming back to the City. Hopefully someone who offered can pick it up for you.
A20 12/17/05 Crash
Sorry to hear about this, though glad to hear that you have no broken bones or serious rehab.
Here's to your speedy and full recovery, rest up and take care of yourself.
very sorry to hear about your crash - hope you recover quickly. just curious, how did it happen?
All the best and a speedy recovery.
Sonny, glad to hear you are alright. Hope you are back in the saddle soon.
No broken bones!
Sonny, you must be made of rubber cement.
We were a bit scared. I am glad there were no internal injuries.
I wish you a speedy recovery and hope to see you on a ride when you're better.
Sonny,
I saw the whole incident as I was right behind you and Gerard. I am glad you are on the mend. I wish you a speedy recovery and hope to see on the road after you've heeled.
Steve,
From what Pam said, you were the hero who diverted the paceline away from the crash. You get a gold star.
Would anyone be willing to give an account of what they think happened so that we might be able to learn from the accident?
"A pothole was called and the ride led around it. Rider #1 went into the pothole and another ran over him. But we don't know why rider #1 ran into the pothole or why he went down as he has no memory from the crash till being in the ambulance.
In the abscence of a ""black box,"" the collective consensus assumes that most problems will fall into failure of basic riding concerns. Could the rider who went down in the pothole have been out of hearing range of the call? We don't know why he went into the hole as the leaders gave it a wide berth. Someone thought they saw a car ahead doing a u-turn which could have been a distraction, another did not recall a car u-turning.
Ride leaders should review basic paceline protocol at the start of each ride such as the need to call out important road hazzards and lead the ride around them.
Does anyone have anything to add or a different take on this?"
">> Does anyone have anything to add?
Yes, why do recreational riders feel compelled to ride in pacelines?
We all know the standard answers: You can ride faster for the same effort, or expend less effort for a given speed. But so what? If riding for exercise/fitness, why would you want less effort? And if not racing, why faster speed?
The downside to paceline riding is that the view of the road ahead is compromised, and the time to react to an ""incident"" is virtually nil. Every year, in every club, people are injured due to paceline mishaps. No matter how experienced, or how well trained, mishaps will happen (even among the pros).
I know I'm in the minority here, but what's so bad about leaving a bike length between riders? It won't eliminate all crashes/injuries. But it will certainly reduce them. Something to think about...
""Chainwheel""
"
I ride for the enjoyment and of course would like to find ways to ride longer with less effort.
A Paceline can be one of those ways and as a recreational rider it is exciting to feel the power when I am part of a Paceline.
That said.
It scares the sh,,t outta me.
The first rule that I have read on pacelines was to trust the leader and follow the bike in front of you. In the few times that I have been in a true Paceline, I have felt very ill at ease with the rides ability of avoiding road hazards. Perhaps it was the talking amongst the riders, tired after a long haul or just simply lack of concentration. Hazards are called way to late to be avoided, I mean at 18-23 MPH how can they??
Other times they are simply NOT called.
My thoughts are the same on a bike as in a car, beware of others, be defensive.
Even in group rides I stay towards the back to avoid
the accidents that may usually occur in any group ride. THIS IS A MORE REALIST POSSIBILTY IN A PACELINE. Leave the Pacelines to the Pros. They assume the risks with the rewards.
As always I hate to hear that someone got hurt, busted a bike simply because it could have been me.
Cycling is a fun sport and I love it, however there are some real risks.
Rob Marcus
This thread is evolving into a question that gets to the heart of A riding. Technically, the difference between A and B is the paceline, not the speed. The purpose of a paceline is to grant the riders the ability to maintain a higher speed with less effort. There is an organic synergy inherent to the process. Obviously pacelines are not for everybody. The quote on hang gliding that you never want to fly as high as you care to fall, is applicable to cycling. It certainly helps to do a lot of it and do it with the same people. And, things do happen. The risks and rewards must be weighed. You get to know a lot about a person who you paceline with. Although NYCC club rides are open to the public and new riders come on board all the time. Prudence dictates giving new riders a wider margin. Winter rides tend to attract newer riders who are unknown quantities. However, this was not the case here. These 2 riders have ridden with the group before. The cause of this accident could have been as simple as a moment of lost concentration. We will never know. We do know that rider #1's helmet was broken. Though he lost memory, the helmet did what it was supposed to do.
Getting back to the virtues of pacelines. It might not be quite like snowboarding through fresh powder up to your waist, but it does add another dimension to cycling. Is it as addictive and dangerous as smoking cigarettes? I hope not.
"""Technically, the difference between A and B is the paceline""
The few times I've pacelined has been a part of a group of four or less. The spacing was relatively wide -- three feet or more. Everyone was in earshot of the front, so failing to pass info down the line was not an issue.
Presuming the wind to usually come from some angle other than dead on, the leader could position themself, relative to the shoulder, to allow trailing riders an offset, affording them some vision of the road ahead.
With this experience in mind as a ride leader, I'm considering a system of ""mini-pacelines"" which would organize the pack into sections with the faster riders leading sub-groups. This would help keep up the average speed albeit in a ""safer"" manner than a classic paceline.
We know this happens informally, but I'm not sure I've seen this written up or discussed as a way to organize a group of riders with a range of paceline skills."
"The why part is easy. The same as answers to why some people climb Mt Everest, because it can be done (and the accompanying adrenaline high). Otherwise, why bike when you can drive, for all of us non-professionals?
As for the additional risk...
I had the ""healthy"" propective of witnessing a serious accident on my first year of riding (paralysis as the end result). I've since seen one of my close riding buddy die from a crash. None of the above involves pace-lining. No car was involves for either cases. And I've come close to being hit by erroneous drivers (well, I WAS hit once, but un-injured).
Is pacelining any worse than simply RIDING? By how much? Say if we're taking up 10% chance of additional risk by riding at all, what's the extra 1% by pacelining?
"
"""The why part is easy. The same as answers to why some people climb Mt Everest, because it can be done (and the accompanying adrenaline high).""
I think this gets to the heart of the matter. If you're riding primarily for the adrenaline rush, you're going to approach cycling one way. Someone like myself who rides fast for fitness, but who also wants to enjoy the scenery, will approach it another way.
Paceline riders (of necessity) focus most of their attention inwardly on the group. Non-paceline riders can relax a bit and focus outwards more. I know I see and hear lots more when riding solo than when I rode in a pacelines.
Back in the day, there were touring cyclists and racers. Most recreational riders considered themselves tourists. Today, many recreational cyclists seem more attuned to the racing perspective. It's a definite ""look"" and attitude. Very serious.
""Otherwise, why bike when you can drive, for all of us non-professionals?""
Not sure what you mean by that. There are lots of reasons for anyone to ride a bike rather than drive.
""Chainwheel"""
"""Otherwise, why bike when you can drive, for all of us non-professionals?""
Not sure what you mean by that.
For most non-cyclist, it would appear you get to see a lot more ""scenery"" by driving, if that's your motivation for riding. As for fitness, you can ride a stationary bike in your basement or out at your front door. That was my main point: that we ride for the ""rush"", if only to different degrees.
Though my point is actually 2 fold. The second half of that point is ""how much risk is that RUSH worth""?
The ""risk"" of pacelining is ON TOP OF cycling, which is inherently dangeous (at least as my own experience indicates). Most ""tourists"" cyclist I met, however slowly they ride, ultimately enjoy the speed, i.e. ""the rush""! How many you ride with would hold their brake on the downhill so they would be going at no faster than on the flat?
With speed, comes risk. Adding limited sight of a paceline, one may argue the risk is too high. But then, there're many who argue riding within the city limit is too risky, more risky than pacelining out on the 'burbs in the first place! I don't see a quantum leap in risk in pacelining over simply ""riding fast"".
I agree with you on the racer mentality part. I suspecct many of the A riders are ""racers"" in their own mind, and would race if they're only fast enough to be part of CRCS. Look at the explosion of popularity in triathlons! Why else would a 9-5 joe be so willing to suffer every weekend jsut so they can get their butts kicked?
I started out definitely as a ""tourist"", and I still don't do paceline. It's my own personal analysis of risk/reward decision, taking consideration of a multitude of factors. But I've definitely ""experienced"" the rush and there's no denying I, too, crave it as much as the scenary.
If I live in an area with considerable fewer potholes than the metro-NY area, I would not hesitate to ride in a paceline. And for others who crave the rush more than I do, well, to them the risk maybe perfectly acceptable."
"""That was my main point: that we ride for the ""rush"", if only to different degrees.""
Depends what you mean by ""rush."" I really enjoy the wind in my face, breaking a sweat, feeling my heart pounding, and getting into a good rhythm on the bike. It makes me feel alive! But a ""rush"" seems more like descending at 50 mph. Lots of people ride for enjoyment, but not necessarily the rush.
""The ""risk"" of pacelining is ON TOP OF cycling, which is inherently dangeous...""
I don't think cycling is particularly dangerous if you ride smart and follow the rules of the road.
""Riding smart"" means (among other things) positioning yourself properly on the road so others see you and know what you're doing, and avoiding unnecessary risks. That may mean slowing down a bit at a dicey intersection or on an unfamiliar descent.
I find that lots of riders become obsessed with the ""average speed"" function on their bike computer. It's easy to get addicted to seeing ever increasing averages. But there are tricks to getting a higher average without really getting fitter. You can increase your average by blasting through intersections and down hills, or riding in a paceline.
""I agree with you on the racer mentality part. I suspecct many of the A riders are ""racers"" in their own mind, and would race if they're only fast enough to be part of CRCS. Look at the explosion of popularity in triathlons! Why else would a 9-5 joe be so willing to suffer every weekend jsut so they can get their butts kicked?""
Exactly! The key word there is ""suffer."" That's what racing is all about: suffering and trying to make your opponent suffer more than you. And that mentality has spread to recreational riders. At first it's fun to push yourself to the limit. But eventually it gets to be a grind.
As a ""50 something"" who has been riding for many years, I decided enough was enough. You don't have to suffer to get a good workout. Dropping down just 1 mph can make the difference between finishing a long ride feeling ""good tired"" instead of exhausted. When I stopped pacelining and constantly watching the blasted computer, I felt sooo much more relaxed on the bike. And I still get a decent average.
This is supposed to be about fun, not suffering! Look at the bike catalogs. All the photos show such serious athletes in team kit, and never a smile to be seen. That is the image that sells road bikes today. It doesn't seem right to me.
""Chainwheel""
"
"I really enjoy the wind in my face, breaking a sweat, feeling my heart pounding, and getting into a good rhythm on the bike. It makes me feel alive!
You call it ""alive"", I would call that ""a rush""!
But a ""rush"" seems more like descending at 50 mph.
I've been on descends that reach 40 mph, which felt quite a ""rush"" for me, only to be passed by others reaching 50 mph! I've also been on the same descends at about the same speed and was cautioned by others who thought I was a daredevil that needs to have her head examined.
This is supposed to be about fun, not suffering!
But it IS fun riding fast! That's the rush.
Even suffering, was fun for many. I'm not saying everyone rides for speed. But I know very few cyclist who do NOT enjoy speed.
At first it's fun to push yourself to the limit. But eventually it gets to be a grind.
Sorry, I really hasn't reached that point yet. And I suspect many others haven't either.
As a ""50 something"" who had nothing to prove, you may find the risk of paceline no longer acceptable. But there're many others who find the risk and the suffering ""the point"" and even the ""whole point"" of cycling. For those, the intense focus of pacelining is a ""need"" in and of itself, not just the means to achieve a higher speed.
Maybe when I gets to be 50 something, I would feel the same way as you do. But I dare to ask you, now that you have the wisdom of hindsight. Do you wish you have NOT pushed yourself to the limit when you were in your 30's and 40's?
Speaking of riding smart, I know some B and C riders, who never paceline, would ride through the winter rain and sleet, and in fading daylight. Personally, I found that WAY more risky than riding paceline out in the 'burbs on smooth dry roads in the middle of the day! I would question the need to ride in such weather and time more than you question the need of recreational rider riding in paceline.
Cycling is never a ""need"" unless one makes it so (which all of us already did). And if someone choose to do so (because it's fun?), pacelining may just enhance the experience so much that it's more ""neccessary"" than just riding harder or riding slower?"
"As I've gotten older, I've gotten wary of pacelining, especially with people I don't regularly ride with. But I do remember doing lots of paceline riding, and it's fun, both from the adrenaline perspective and for the teamwork involved.
Most such incidents I've seen happen in longer lines when the front rider calls the hole and moves around it in time for himself and maybe one or two following riders to clear it easily. The longer the line, the sooner the front rider has to move in order to give riders near the back time to move without making a sudden swerve around the hole.
Double pacelines double the problem of being able to find safe passage around a hole, while cutting the problem of long pace lines in half.
Of course, there are reasons why the leader may not move around the hole at the optimum time– passing autos or even other passing bike traffic, a rough section of road that's worse than the hole ahead, etc. We are ""playing in traffic,"" after all."
Pacelines can be safer than solo cycling.
Pacelines present motorists with more visual clues that there are cyclists on the road. Do not assume that drivers see cyclists.
If done correctly, the rider or riders at the head of the line, with the onus of their position, will lead the line around hazards which might be missed by the solo rider.
The riders within the line must be more attentive to their surroundings, thus are constantly on their guard.
A rider in a paceline with a mechanical problem is less likely to have to fend for theirself.
An accident among a paceline has more able-bodied people to attend to the problem.
The increased speed of the paceline can mean less time out on the road, thus less exposure to danger.
You say: Pacelines present motorists with more visual clues that there are cyclists on the road. Do not assume that drivers see cyclists.
I Agree, but they also present motorists with a bigger obstacle to get around, which can be a hazard. Wear bright colors. I've read reports of motorists plowing into group rides.
You say: If done correctly, the rider or riders at the head of the line, with the onus of their position, will lead the line around hazards which might be missed by the solo rider.
I say: Big if. If done incorrectly, you have a safety problem. A solo rider can see the road better without a butt in his face. If you hit a road hazard solo, you got nobody to blame. I've had experienced ride leaders start coasting on slight downhills while yacking about the movie they saw the previous night.
You say: The riders within the line must be more attentive to their surroundings, thus are constantly on their guard.
I say: They should be, but don't have to be... and that's where you get into trouble. You can choose to be on your guard, even when going solo.
You say: A rider in a paceline with a mechanical problem is less likely to have to fend for theirself.
I say: Of course a sudden blowout can take the rider and his friends down. Any group ride gives you helping hands without the proximity problems.
You say: An accident among a paceline has more able-bodied people to attend to the problem.
I say: And it allows more able bodied people to get involved in the accident. Most accidents in pacelines happen because of the paceline... so they wouldn't happen without it, or would only involve one rider if not in a paceline.
You say: The increased speed of the paceline can mean less time out on the road, thus less exposure to danger.
I say: So then the best way to reduce road accidents is to raise speed limits? Increased speed reduces reaction time.
Pacelines are fun, and if you enjoy them you should ride in them, (I do from time to time). Under some odd circimstances, they might be safer than going solo, but it's a stretch to say that overall you're safer in a paceline.
"""Pacelines present motorists with more visual clues that there are cyclists on the road.""
Groups rides with one bike length between riders are just as visible.
""riders at the head of the line... will lead the line around hazards which might be missed by the solo rider.""
Why would the lead rider in a paceline see things that a solo rider wouldn't?
""The riders within the line must be more attentive to their surroundings, thus are constantly on their guard.""
Sounds great in theory, but expecting everyone to stay focused 100% during a 4-hour ride is not realistic, especially when fatigue sets in. And especially if the paceline is large. The riders within a paceline have a limited view of the road ahead, and little or no time to react to a problem.
""A rider in a paceline with a mechanical problem is less likely to have to fend for theirself.""
The same could be said for a group ride that wasn't pacelining.
""The increased speed of the paceline can mean less time out on the road, thus less exposure to danger.""
That's a real stretch! Is a paceline riding at 28 mph safer than a solo rider at 18 mph? Is a motorist driving at 85 mph safer than one driving 55 mph? I don't think so.
Look, some folks are going to paceline, and there's nothing wrong with that. I've done plenty of paceline riding myself in the past. What I object to is the notion that you're not cool or a truly skilled cyclist unless you paceline. That's the not-so-subtle message I hear preached in magazine articles and club newsletters. It's just not true. I think folks need to step back, consider the pros and cons, and make their own decision. I see no compelling reason for recreational riders to paceline.
""Chainwheel"""
"""What I object to is the notion that you're not cool or a truly skilled cyclist unless you paceline.""
Not only have I never gotten that impression, it has nothing to do with the issue of safety.
All the arguements which have been launched come down to being aware of what is going on around you and having the skills and knowledge to deal with them. I feel safer in a paceline among those who I regularly cycle with than I do driving on Route 95 in moderate traffic. There are plenty of times I ride solo or in a group but not in a tight line. We all agree that risk assessment is up to the individual. Doing an A Sig is a first step to pacelining. Putting many miles under your wheels gives you the breath of experience needed to hone your skills. And you need luck. But that goes for everything in life.
One other thing about pacelining: it gets me to faraway hill climbs which might not be accessable otherwise by riding either solo or in a non-paceline group. And, of course, the featured hill climbs are not done in paceline."
"""Chainwheel"" wrote:
""What I object to is the notion that you're not cool or a truly skilled cyclist unless you paceline.""
Hank Schiffman wrote:
""Not only have I never gotten that impression, it has nothing to do with the issue of safety.""
Hank, elsewhere in this thread you wrote:
""Technically, the difference between A and B is the paceline, not the speed.""
So, if the difference between an ""A"" rider and a ""B"" rider is not speed, but pacelining, what message does that send? If you want to be an ""A"" rider, you must paceline. And if you're not an ""A"" rider, you're second rate.
""I feel safer in a paceline among those who I regularly cycle with than I do driving on Route 95 in moderate traffic.""
This raises another good point. On most club rides, you ride with the people that show up. Some riders may be unknown quantities, or even known bad riders. Yet I don't ever recall someone being banned from a ride. People will whisper afterwards that so-and-so scares the s**t out of them, but they still ride with him.
My main point is that while pacelining is an essential part of racing, it isn't essential to recreational riding. It certainly does not enhance safety, and it's not the ultimate mark of a skilled cyclist. More emphasis should be placed on bike handling, riding in traffic, and riding safely in a group than pacelining.
I was lucky that I never crashed in a paceline. The reasons I stopped were:
1) Lots of close calls.
2) Crashes among the group on days I wasn't riding.
3) Ever increasing speed and risk taking.
Proper training and experience can make pacelining safer, but never as safe non-paceline rides.
""Chainwheel""
"
"Chainwheel,
""Technically, the difference between A and B is the paceline, not the speed.""
So, if the difference between an ""A"" rider and a ""B"" rider is not speed, but pacelining, what message does that send? If you want to be an ""A"" rider, you must paceline. And if you're not an ""A"" rider, you're second rate.
I think you are reading too much out of a simple statement. Running the marathon an hour and a quarter slower than the winner does not make me feel inferior. We are just running different races. The same can be said of everything; there are always a bigger fish. With this line of thought you might as well stay in bed. Whatever you do is an achievement for you. We are all lucky that we live in times like these which offer options for recreation and in economic situations where we can take advantage of them. Yes, paceline riding does have dangers. It is not for everyone. Obviously it is not for you at this time in your life. But it isn't elite, just technically different. Pacelining is not the top of the cycling hill. Racing is a lot more difficult and carries many more dangers. And riding solo, getting a flat in the middle of nowhere, in extreme conditions can be dangerous too. Or getting hit by a car and thrown off the road unwitnessed, can be fatal."
Every time there is a crash this issue of pacelines comes up. Gerry, and the riders in front of him that day, are all experienced group riders. I assume that the pothole was called out by the riders in front of Gerry. However, as we all know with potholes, sometimes you float right over them and sometimes they can cause a crash. Knowing Gerry's skill and experience on the bike, his crash and mine were just plain bad luck. It is just as likely that any other day, Gerry and I would have gone right over the pothole as other riders may have but on that day, Gerry was unlucky to roll through it the wrong way. Gerry and the riders in front of him were all experienced and I would ride with them in a paceline any day.
Friday I picked up my bike and with the exception of some gouges in the rubber at the top of the shifters, the bike is totally fine. Most of my stitches came out on Friday, rest will come out today. It is healing nicely. Still have some soreness in my neck and upper back but that gets better day by day.
Assuming my recovery continues at the current rate, I am hoping to do the Polar Bear Ride on Sunday.
... you've had a speedy recovery, Sonny. And we really hope to see you there Sunday!
"My final statement here is not to stop anyone from being in, leading or dreaming of being part of a Pace line. But simply ""Be Careful"".
There are risks in cycling on any road at any time,
simply be aware of them.
Robert Marcus"
I am sorry to hear about the accident. If you have a carbon fiber frame, have it professionally checked out. One of my bikes is CF and I learned that they won't show damage like a metal or alloy. A crash at the right angle can weaken the frame significantly even though it looks great to the naked eye.
Bob
What would you suggest? I also have CF bars and the bars did not actually hit pavement but definately took impact. The point of contact was the top of the shifters and then the bike fell on top of me and bounced off to the side.
If I crashed my CF frame, I would take it to my excellent LBS. I don't know what the LBS would do - probably send it to trek? Not sure.
From what I understand, a CF frame is comprised of cloth sheets of carbon fiber bonded with epoxy. Internal damage from an impact to the carbon fiber/epoxy may be hidden.
Bob
"I found better information on the CF frame inspection procedure.
http://www2.trekbikes.com/Assets/Carbon_Care/06TK_Carbon_Care_Flyer.pdf
Hope it helps,
Bob
P.S. Just received today (1/13/06) a direct mail letter from the president of trek with the flyer above enclosed and stickers to put on my CF bike. Stickers read ""Damaged carbon fiber can fail suddenly, causing serious injury or death. Carbon Fiber can conceal damamge from an impact or crash..."" I'm suppose to put a sticker on the top of my head tube.
I guess it is time to switch to titanium."
"Just received today (1/13/06) a direct mail letter from the president of trek with the flyer - (http://www2.trekbikes.com/Assets/Carbon_Care/06TK_Carbon_Care_Flyer.pdf) enclosed and stickers to put on my CF bike. Stickers read ""Damaged carbon fiber can fail suddenly, causing serious injury or death. Carbon Fiber can conceal damage from an impact or crash..."" I'm suppose to put a sticker on the top of my head tube.
I guess it is time to switch to titanium.
"
I agree with Hank and Sonny. Riding in a group adds a lot to the enjoyment of cycling, and for me this also means pacelines. I have been riding over 4000 miles per year over the last many years 75% of it with a group. Yes accidents do happen but they are rare when the entire group is disciplined, this means no half wheelers, keeping a minimum distance, calling out for hazards, etc..
Why did I fall on the 17th? I'll probably never know as I don't remember the crash nor the last few minutes before or after it! I just feel bad that I took Sonny down with me.
I'll be back on the bike as soon as by back allows it. I fractured three vertebrae and the doctors tells me it'll be 8 to 10 weeks before I am in perfect shape!
Heal well, Gerald.
Looking forward to riding with you again.
Best,
Jeff
Gerald,
I hope you heal quickly. Back injuries sometimes are tough to get back into prime cycling shape. You will probably have to do core strength exercises as part of rehab (and in general).
Steve
This whole thread started because two riders were hurt during a group ride. Hope you are both doing well. Sonny, I saw you on Sunday and personally think your face is improved from prior to the accident, lol. Now about this whole paceline issue. I just don't understand why people have such strong opinions one way or the other. The fact is people paceline because they like to paceline, it's fun for them. Others don't paceline because they don't like to paceline, it's no fun for them or to dangerous. Either way, it's not going to stop the fact that you will see pacelines out in the suburbs every weekend. Sooo, it's the same as listening to Howard Stern, if you don't like him, change the channel. If you don't want to paceline then don't, just don't bash those who do. I'm guessing there are just as many, if not more, solo crashes then paceline crashes, they just aren't publicized on this message board. Oh, and yes, I am aware that Howard is no longer on fm radio, I was just using him as an example :).
