"Hey people.
I need some advise to those that may have had this issue and resolved or worked through this.
Here goes. I have been doing some a good amount of biking over the past 16 months, first on my Hybrid, then since July on a road bike with SPD pedals. I had been fitted in early August by Craig Upton ( another story, another day).
I am 205lbs 5-11 and 47 yo, on the muscular end of the spectrum, but surely not muscle bound.
I had some cramping on the Hybrid, mostly Calf stuff but resolved it with pre and post ride stretching over 6 months ago. I NOW have been suffering with cramping in what is called the SATORIUS muscle in my Thigh. It is the inside muscle that runs from the hip area along the inside of the entire thigh and connects at the knee area. Another name for what I have is
""Tailors cramp"". Tailors would get cramps of the satorius from crossing their leg over their knees.
First let me say I have gone to an Orthopedist and he suggested some stretching but I do not beleive that what he prescribed is resolving this issue. Yes, I do it at the gym and when I ride which is between the 2 almost everyday.
I ususally get the cramping after very hard or long rides of say 50-75 miles with hills. I tend to think it is physiological issue since I know I am in better shape than some and I never hear of Cramping of this type. I am pretty sure it is because of the amount of hills or rolling hills that is causing this.
I drink plenty of water, powerade and have my carbs etc.
I do not have any aches after a ride. during the ride I can get the ususal burns or aches of a hard ride.
I hit the gym, do hack squats, extensions, curls, No issues there.
So my guess is my leg positioning, clip position, Mineral Difficency or my muscle have an issue. Maybe the pulling in the climbs or Pedal clip position.
Any suggestions from experience or a MD who is a Orthopedist AND a cyclist or deals with them would help.
Thank you in advance
Rob ""Don't Cramp My Style"" Marcus
"
Cramping help, or Medical refferal
I can't remember where I saw it, but Dr. Lim (Floyd Landis' outstanding trainer) provided an excellent explanation of cramping. I wish I could find it; I will keep looking. While there are several contributing factors such as too hot, too cold or electrolyte loss, the main one is simple: fatigue from riding in excess (harder or longer) of your current physical condition. There is also a specificity component: not used to hills, riding hills may cause cramping; same with riding long, extended flat stretches if you generally ride rolling terrain.
Do you stretch after you ride? Sartorius, because it contributes to so many actions, is not easy to stretch, but it can be done. Better stretching can be done with a partner assisting you.
Just to be correct, Sartorius runs from the mid-thigh (the ASIS of the hip bone) to the inside of the knee (pes anserine).
My guess is that Sartorius is cramping because the other hip flexors are being recruited beyond the point of their endurance, at which point Sartorius, which is not a prime hip flexor, is being used. Do more to strengthen the quads, especially Rectus Femoris, and Iliopsoas, and the cramping may lessen.
Also, regular massage can assist with cramping issues.
[Full disclosure: the writer is a licensed massage therapist.]
P.S. What are hack squats?
The post ride stretching is something I also do. Yesterday was hopeless, since as I got into a position to strech I would cramp up before I could stretch it out.
I use a sitting position, flat of the feet together and then push down on my knees. You are correct that a person assisting me would help stretch it, but that is not a real option.
Massages? Perhaps.
Hack squats are Full squats, done on a machine. The person stands either facing the machine or away from it.
The advantage is that you can add more weight without worrying about balance of a normal free standing squat. It also saves the lower back. It accomplishes what is needed in the quads and I usually hit that once a week at
about 360 lbs 4 sets of 10.
However, I understood that Hip flexors flexibility
is an issue for men more so than women because of their physical makeup.
Thanks for the feed back. I am certain that the clipping in has something to do with causing this imbalance, ie fit, cleat, forward, back etc.
Thanks again
Rob
"? I am certain that the clipping in has something to do with causing this imbalance, ie fit, cleat, forward, back.
Fit-
Axle of pedal centered under ball of both feet, not much wriggle room here. What happens north of the feet is as much art as it is science. If you paid top $’s to get a fit that isn’t quite right, why not do a follow up visit, or look up Happy Freeman.
Other possible causes?
Adding to what others have already mentioned, your diet, too many (hills, miles, beers) can cause cramping. If it hits you during a long climb, alternate sitting/ standing to change the origin of your pedal stroke and focus more on the down stroke.
>I have gone to an Orthopedist and he suggested some stretching but I do not beleive that what he prescribed is resolving this issue.
The seated position you mentioned–with the soles of your feet together (baddha konasana) is a good stretch for the ADductors, not the ABductors. It feels great but you should not press your knees down, instead lean forward with a straight back and have the energy of your knees moving away from your hip sockets. Putting a block (or your unused Yellow Pages) between your feet will make it more delicious.
To access the Sartorius (the longest muscle in your body), try lying on your back with knees bent, feet on the floor at hip width (or wider) distance apart. Slowly make windshield wipers (American) motion with your legs. Or increase the stretch by putting the outside ankle on top of the knee.
A number of classic Yoga standing postures (Triangle, W2…) are great hip openers and stretch all the flexors and extensors.
More,
Stretching any cramping muscle can increase pain (which is OK if you’re into that sort of thing). Another way to induce the relaxation response to a muscle is to contract the agonist muscles. (i.e. if your bicep is cramping, hold your arm at 90 degrees with the other hand and try to extend your arm by contracting your tricep.) This could get tricky with certain muscle groups. Try Dhanurasana (Bow pose on your belly), grab your ankles behind your back and lift your feet towards the ceiling, and try to keep your knees together to keep the Sartorius from contracting.
Lastly, massage is almost never a bad thing, and Yoga is much more than just “stretching”.
Hey FG:
Where can I snag one of those Orange Jerseys?
"
I agree that it is positioning with your bike and possibly a muscle imbalance. Because the sartorius flexes and laterally rotates your hip....if you are not effectively using your gluts/hamstrings on hills your going to overfatigue your quads/hip flexors. Anyway, it has been mentioned throughout the emails you may be positioned in a way that is causing you to rotate your hip laterally and use that on hills. This muscle is tiny compared to your gluts/hamstrings it will definitely fatigue and cramp. If you want someone who can help you with bike positioning I know Toga Bike (Will Alvarado - manager) does bike fits. Not sure what the cost is but you should call. Good luck!
Sartorius is involved in hip flexion, abduction, and lateral rotation, as well as knee flexion; a busy muscle. It is highly unlikely that your cramps are due to psychological issues. Try Dr. Mark Klion (orthopedist and triathlete) on the upper east side (don't have his #.) Good luck!
"oops -- sorry, I misread ""physiological"" as ""psychological."" No disrespect intended -- just thought you meant you might be psyching yourself out. Again, best of luck."
Don’t discount the psychological part, which may is associated with what I mentioned above:
“It is hypothesized that there exists a learned subconscious anticipatory/regulation system, known as ‘teleoanticipation’ originating from the central nervous system. This subconscious feedback mechanism serves to decrease output from the motor cortex. Prior to the beginning of a given competition it is hypothesized that the cyclist’s CNS is aware of the rider’s fitness level, endurance capacity and limitations as gained from previous similar competitions. The total exercise load and time the cyclist’s body can tolerate the given metabolic level is known. Having this information there occurs, at the subconscious level, the exercise load limit in order to avoid premature fatigue prior to the conclusion of the event. This is accomplished by a ‘central programmer’ that sets the tolerable upper limits for the total competitive loads.” From “The Science of Cycling.”
Cramping is most likely neuromuscular in nature rather than simply muscular.
I figured what you really meant.
But ya never know.
Rob
I figure what you meant.
But you never know.
Rob
Easily overlooked when taking supplemental electrolytes but just as important as sodium or potassium, especially if you sweat heavily. Try Slow-Mag tablets.
Have you tried changing your position on the bike? If your quads cramp you may want to put yourself in a position where you are using your hamstrings more than you are now and taking some of the load off of your quads. I did that for myself by lowering my seat.
is the cheapest, simplest way to get more potassium into the body.
Quarter teaspoon into a 24 oz water bottle give you 20% of the daily adult requirement.
Note: Not recommended for those seeking to limit their intake of radioactivite substances:
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/cwillis/rad/nosalt.html
Regarding position on the bike. This of course can surely be a factor. Of course figuring out what is the
positioning aspect that is causing this is not that simple. Am I over streched on the torso, or legs?
Salt loss, perhaps from persperation. I do not think this iswhat is the real problem I am having but will be considored.
I would not rule out overexertion, BUTTTTT I put on too many miles for that to be so simple an answer.
In any case I hope to get an answer and keep everyone posted and thank you for all the input. I will try some of the suggestions for added salt plus adding some different stretching techniques. I am still convinced that it is something simple in how I am positioned or my ride style. Neither one I can see for myself.
Rob
"""I would not rule out overexertion, BUTTTTT I put on too many miles for that to be so simple an answer.""
Miles are meaningless. Its the kilojoules that count.
"
True.
I am sure it is mostly Post-ride type fatigue of the muscles caused by positioning and the style or type of riding combined.
I am allergic to Casein and I must watch my consumption of dairy products. Therefore, I take a daily Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc supplement. I do not find this has helped very much with cramping, which is why I support the doing too much of what my body is not used to be it volume, intensity, or specificity theory.
For example:
- I am prone to cramping when the effort exceeds 1000 kj per hour for an hour or so. This is a short, but very hard effort where dehydration and electrolye loss is not a factor.
- I am prone to cramping when the ride overall energy expenditure exceeds about 4000 kj total and 800 kj per hour. This is a long, hard effort.
- I am prone to cramping when the work volume jumps too much from what I was previously accustomed. For example, the STS is systematically designed to gradually increase workload by increasing distance and vertical gain on the rides. For me, the ride efforts start in the low 2500 kj range in March and gradually increase to 4000 kj by May. I find if I jump more than 500 kj in one week, I am prone to cramping.
- When in the Autumn I switch from mainly outdoor riding to indoor spin classes, I find that early on I am very prone to cramping when the effort is high. This is because outdoor riding is stochastic and indoor riding, at least my style, is constant power/force. Here, the factors are a hard effort coupled with a change in specificity.
- Conversely, in Spring when I switch form mainly indoor riding to outdoor riding, I find I am prone to cramping at the end of hard 45 minute to one hour efforts. This is because my neuromuscular system is accustomed to relatively constant power/force efforts, and outdoor riding is more stochastic.
- I never experience cramping during interval training, be they long (20 min) medium (5 minute) or short (1 min). In addition, if position is a factor than riding time would be the correlating factor, which for me it is not, as I never cramp on easy/moderate rides, no matter the lenght. These last two observations provide very strong supporting evidence that cramping mostly a function of volume and intensity. Hot or cold or temperature may be a secondary contributing factor.
Okay, I got the main idea of what you are presenting.
When I speak of positioning I also include my mechanics
in this. Meaning how I spin, how I sit, my toe position etc. I try to take hills sitting as much as possible.
I agree that it must be an exertion issue for me on the hills combined with the total effort of the hard ride.
Thanks for the time in replying, now I have to find my
mojo.
Rob
In a sense cramping could be viewed as an indication you are doing the right thing, meaning pushing the envelope of your current fitness level.
"It's all good. However I am in the camp ""Pain NO GAIN"" or
""This too shall pass"".
Thanks again
Rob"
This is *not* how one should view cramping. Cramping is an indicator that something is amiss. My experience (personal and anecdotal) is that once a particular muscle cramps, it tends to subsequently develop cramps, unless one recognizes what led to it and changing that circumstance. In Rob's case, the changing of pedals and/or the new bike fit could have something to do with his cramping. I don't recall if Rob said whether the cramping is on one or both sides.
Did Smiley look at you on the bike and watch you pedal? That could be helpful. Fluidity of your pedal stroke and how your hips are positioned on the saddle could give some clues as to which musculature you're stressing when riding. It doesn't have to be Smiley, either. Anyone who really knows what he (or she) is talking about would do.
But in the meantime:
Drink (I recommend a good electrolyte replacement such as Hammer's Endurolyte capsules)
Stretch (after riding)
Soak (hot bath with epsom salts and baking soda)
Massage (including passive stretching)
If a cramp occurs, have someone compress the affected area with the palm of their hand. Do not attempt to stretch a muscle when it is cramping.
While my comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, and your advice in the event of a cramp is sound, I stand by my observation as to the cause. Nothing is necessarily amiss, merely too much of what the body is not accustomed. The study in the link posted by Mordecai supports my contention.
I disagree. One or two occasions of cramping are probably nothing to be concerned about. But regular occurences, such as after every long, hilly ride, are reason to believe that something needs to be adjusted.
Yes, congenital cramping should be examined, as is mentioned in the studay as well. But from occasional volume/intensity associated cramping not much can be done, given you stretch, hydrate and fuel properly.
leg and calf cramping can come from the spinal lumbar area too.
i have a lot of stenosis and sometimes i am awoken at 5AM with severe calf cramping. When my higher lumbar herniations flare up i get pain and cramping in the front of my quadriceps.
tight hamstrings can cause havoc in the lumbar spine when riding hard,it pulls the pelvic area out of wack
