"Having been an consistent B16 rider for my cycling life, I've surprised myself with a series of personal bests over the last four weeks:
9/3-5 - Newark/Bucks County/Newark: 75/80 miles each way /13.0 mph average. Notes: Older touring bike with fenders, loaded panniers and downtube shifters.
9/11 - TA New York Century: 106 miles/12.7 mph average. Slowed to guide out-of-towners through the Bronx, otherwise was on track for a 14 mph pace through 70 miles.
9/18 - CPW/Parkside/Bayonne/Staten Island/West Side Greenway: 102 miles/14.1 mph average. Notes: Hung off the back of Hannah Borgesons B-17 ride for 60 miles. Remaining distance on my own.
9/25 - Newark/Princeton/Newark: 100 miles/15.4 mph average. Notes: Led a great group of overachieving Bs who all took turns pulling. As a leader, this is the first time Ive supported this. Overall pace understated by .5 mph as a result of walking bikes a quarter mile through a NJ street fair.
Per 5BBC Ride Leadership training, I have always pulled for the full distance and set my ride pace accordingly. The Princeton ride is the first time Ive drafted for any significant distance and was quite surprised how strong the effect was at 18-21 mph vs the 16-17 mph pace I generally pull at.
Semi-serious question: So long as I maintain this level of performance, do I consider myself an ""A"" rider -- or was the Princeton ride ""cheating""?"
Discovering drafting
If you want to be an A rider, you need to take your turn at the front with all rides - not draft at the back. A rides as a matter of course ride with rotating pacelines, and double pacelines where conditions allow. And you need the requisite bike-handling skills necessary to ride consistently at this level and to stay out of trouble, without bringing down everyone behind you.
A lot of C riders I know have better bike-handling skills than people that ride at faster paces.
Speed is not the only thing that makes you an A rider.
But your point about bike-handling skills is well taken. Thanks.
Hi Neile,
Take the A sig next spring. I agree that being an A rider involves more than speed--it is also skills, stamina, riding style, and a state of mind. If you graduate the SIG and you keep up your skills and pace after the SIG, then you will definitely be an A rider.
BTW, the A SIG is a *wonderful* experience; it is taught by very knowledgeable and dedicated folks.
Hi Chaim!
OK, the A-SIG is about more than just speed... but how fast should a wannabe A-Siggie be able to ride?
One way to find out is to do the four-lap self-test in Central Park. They need to be four non-stop, consecutive laps. If you can do them inside 1 hour: 40 mins, you will probably be ok for the A-19 Sig, as it does not start at full speed, but takes a few weeks to get up there. If you can complete the test in under 1 hour: 35 minutes, then you might like to consider the A Classic.
But you will need to put in some mid-week training, in order to avoid being dropped once the 'no-drop' policy expires. But that doesn't happen for about four weeks in the A-19.
When you do the self-test, try and do it midweek when the park is shut to motor traffic. Winter is ideal, because you see few other people on the road at that time and it is much easier to do four non-stop laps. But you should do a lap to warm-up first. And don't attempt to do your four laps flat out. If you can, try it in January to find out how close to the pace you are. Then try it again in February, before deciding which Sig is best for you.
There is usually a ride in mid February, organised by the A Sig leaders, that gives you an opportunity to meet the leaders and ask questions. It is a relaxed ride - no great distance and no high speeds.
Once the Sigs are underway, there is an opportunity in the first few weeks to switch to a faster or slower group, if you feel you've made the wrong choice.
"Hi Natalia,
Since the goal is 19 mph (for the A19 sig), you should be able to ride 17 mph for a long period. If you're close but not quite there, don't despair. You can always train somewhat seriously after the SIG begins and you'll be able to catch up before the ""No-drop"" policy expires. It is a good idea to start riding a few weeks before the SIG starts--I know it will be cold, but just get out and ride.
If you're even thinking of taking the SIG, then just do it and don't be too worried about your current speed because: 1) you can catch up early on if necessary, and 2) what's the worst case scenario? You can move down to the B18 SIG. They won't excommunicate you from the club or anything like that. The SIG is really wonderful, it's taught by a great and dedicated bunch of people. You'll learn a lot and have a great time and enjoy great comraderie.
My own personal experience: I joined the SIG not sure if I could complete it. Throughout the SIG, I was afraid I would not complete it. But two weeks before the SIG ended, I realized I was going to make it just fine. What a wonderful experience that was!
"
That you pulled on the Princeton ride for 40% of the time was not clear from your original post.
In an ideal situation, an A group of 10 riders, riding in a single, rotating paceline, would only pull for 10% of the time, with each rider taking a short pull at the front (under a minute and maybe no more than 30 seconds), before peeling off smoothly and going to the back. While within the paceline, you save approximately 30% of your effort compared with riding at the same speed, over the same distance solo, or pulling a group all the way.
If you were pulling for 40% of the time, it implies that the other riders were not doing their fare share at the front.
The advantage of working in a tight single or double rotating paceline is that you can ride a greater distance for the same, overall, individual effort, compared with riding solo, or you can ride at higher speeds and sustain them, or a combination of the two.
Both the A Classic and the A-19 Sig would teach you how to ride in rotating pacelines and how to ride in a tight paceline. It will give you the confidence to ride as close as a wheel length to the rider in front and teach you how to look ahead at what the rest of the group is doing and for potential hazards and obstacles, rather than focus on the wheel in front. The Sigs will also teach you how to peel off safely and smoothly and move to the back efficiently without getting dropped. And the Sigs will teach you some valuable bike-handling skills.
"It was an ad hoc decision as I generally don't draft but there were three of us heading down to Princeton to meet a fourth who was biking up from Trenton. We got a late start and I was afraid we wouldn't make the rendezvous on time. So at the 30 mile mark, I took one rider up on his offer to pull the last 15 miles heading down. The third rider had a hard ride the day before and begged off.
Once we got into Princeton, the three of us were quite tired from maintaining a pace a couple of mph faster than usual but the friend we were meeting was still fresh so he pulled for thirty five odd miles heading back. I took over the ride again as we headed into Newark. Overall, the work was split about 40%/35%/25%
------------------------
""with each rider taking a short pull at the front (under a minute and maybe no more than 30 seconds)""
That short? So at each interval, the puller is actually sprinting?
I had no idea a paceline's rotation was so frequent. That must be on helluva water ballet."
Even with a short pull in the front, you are not sprinting at the front. And when it is done properly, the person at the front when the previous rider pulls off does not surge, but maintains the speed of the paceline. It's hard to put into words, but if you experience it, you will know what I mean.
If you are riding into a strong headwind, sure you will feel the full force of that wind for the time you are at the front, but it is only a short time.
Not all pacelines doe that short a pull, some people spend a minute or two at the front. Personally, I prefer the short pulls.
If you look at a team time trial on the Tour de France, the pulls at the front are only for a few seconds on a good team, and the paceline rotates like a chain. Of course, they have the advantage of no traffic on the roads and in a cross wind, they can form in a diaganol line across the whole width of the road to gain maximum shelter from the cross wind.
"In club rides, people usually pull for a few minutes, depending on the situation. My philosophy is to take a longer pull at a speed I am comfortable with, rather than try to hang on a wheel that's pushing a few MPH faster than I like.
The latter kind of paceline Anthony is describing is a ""rotating paceline,"" which is different the ""double paceline"" that NYCC riders are used to. It's the standard paceline in racing, and is quite efficient in keeping a high rate of speed.
SIG pacelines are not about going super-fast, as Christy Guzzetta said, but about learning to be comfortable having bikes all around you. You learn that a bike can ride through almost anything, and you learn to ride in a more predictable manner, and how to anticipate what's coming in the roadway. No jerking, no screaming ""Hole!"", no swerving.
A diagonal paceline is also called an echelon, and is employed when there are crosswinds."
Drafting makes a huge difference (just ask Lance!), but it looked to me like you were hanging too far back on the Park Ridge ride to get caught up in the slipstream.
hannah
Hey Neile,
Come out for the A Classic SIG. Get rid of those fenders, no paniers, light on your bike, light on the road. You're still riding that old touring bike with downtube shifters? Get a fast bike built for speed. You don't need to spend a million dollars on a bike. You can afford a fast bike, I know you can. It doesn't have to be a lot of money. I spent a million bucks on my bike, but you can get even a faster one for hundreds. It's the 20th Anniversary SIG, a great time for you to participate. You'll learn how to pull, how to draft, you'll learn how to train, how to position yourself on the bike, you'll learn how to ride fast all day long. The A Classic SIG, you'll meet other A riders, you'll see how they think - and you will start thinking just like they do. You'll meet new friends, Neile, friends who will be in your life for years to come. It starts the first Saturday in March, runs thru pretty much all of May. Every Saturday, rain date on Sunday. Training during the week. Fast! Riding fast! Whoa, I'm already getting excited about the 20th anniversary SIG in 2006! Join the A Classic SIG, that'll make you an A Rider for sure, Neile!
"Christy Guzzetta wrote: ""You're still riding that old touring bike with downtube shifters? Get a fast bike built for speed.""
http://www.nycc.org/photos/04_christy/
So how much did those shifters slow you down, Christy?
;-)
"
One can only assume that that is Christy's dedicated climbing bike...
- Christian
PS: Christy, I'd like to do the A-Classic next year, for sure!
"Great, Christian! I'll see you out there. Let's be sure to get Neile to show up. The 20th SIG, it's historic! That bike, the one with the downtube shifters I'm riding in those pictures, it's been on every single one of the A SIG Classic graduation rides - just like me. All 19 to date, number 20 coming up in May, 2006. I always take it on the graduation ride . . . . for sentimental reasons, for ""old time's sake"". I don't want it to feel rejected, don't want it to feel unloved. It is indeed loved! It's a great old bike. Handmade by Ugo DeRosa himself. Ugo used to build bikes for Eddy Merckx. I figured if he could build them for Eddy, he could build them for me. My other road bike has ergo shifters. Richard Sachs, custom, very sexy. Do the ergo shifters make me faster? No, but it keeps my hands on the handlebars, makes shifting more spontaneous, makes it safer. Safety is a top priority of the SIG. In fact, safety is the number one priority of the SIG, speed is number 2. I just ordered a new frame, a limited edition Eddy Merckx 25th Anniversary commemorative issue. This one is fast, real fast, rocket ship fast! Whooooosh! Carbon fiber, it'll weigh about 15 pounds built. It's hasn't gotten here yet, still in Belgium. Insanely expensive! And that's just the frame! So expensive I can't afford to build the thing. Especially with the price of gasoline being what it is. I don't know when the frame is going to get here from Belgium. Soon?
Nah, I'm not too excited about the 20th SIG!"
Carbon AXM? That's a mega-hot frame!
But a nice steel DeRosa is pretty cool too. Certainly better than the horrid stuff coming out of Cusano Milanino these days. The DeRosa Tango makes Baby Jesus cry! Ok, the Neo-Primato is still nice.
Can't wait to see it,
- Christian
"That's it, Christian, the AXM carbon frame. And it is indeed hot. It's so hot it's like a dirty movie. Not that I've seen any dirty movies, mind you. I doubt you'll see it on the road this Spring, I can't imagine where I'll get the money to have the thing built. All I have now is the frame. And I don't even have the frame yet, it's still in Belgium. It's coming. And I do indeed own it. I'm just waiting. And waiting. And waiting. I'm thinking of getting a night job in the meantime, save up so money to build it. Remember that lady who was on the message board looking for the most expensive bike in the world? Well, when this baby is built, it'll be in the running!
My DeRosa is Ugo's 35th anniversary Signature model. Very cool. Cobalto brakes. Know what they are? Had all C record components. As they wore out over the past 20 years, they've been replaced by newer stuff. Can't find C record components anywhere. It was a short lived Campy groupo. Not one of their best, but certainly one of their most beautiful. And as we all know, big points for style!
Hey, Neile, I'm sure you got my email. Come on out for the A Classic SIG. I'm not sure we cover in the SIG that amazing detail Johnn Z talked about. Heck, I don't even know what he was talking about. Hey, John, how'd you learn all that stuff? I think it's safe to say, we're more basic on the SIG than John's approach, a little more simple, a little more fundamental. We practice the ""get on your bike and ride"" approach. We could probably use a little of John's smarts on the SIG. Hey John, what are you doing come March 2006?"
"Neile;
Based upon my observations during UARs, you have the core physical capabilities to ride at an A-19 level. Therefore, I grade you at least an ""A-"", with 21 being an “A” and 23 being an “A+”.
As mentioned above, riding a less taxing bicycle will greatly contribute to a faster riding experience and like any of us, a couple pounds off our own frame won’t hurt as well. In addition, I recommend clipless pedals and a higher saddle, both of which will enable you to generate a bit more power. You appear to have good neuromuscular power and endurance, but could use a boost in mid-high end aerobic power. These characteristics are probably due to your route selection (lots of start-stop and small hills); mid-high end aerobic power can simply be increased by some focused high-intensity steady-state workouts. Finally, you may want to try a little more paceline practice on your weekend rides in preparation for the SIG."
.. but I agree with your assessment.
I may even understand it.
Thanks, Professa.
“…riding a less taxing bicycle will greatly contribute to a faster riding experience and like any of us, a couple pounds off our own frame won’t hurt as well. In addition, I recommend clipless pedals and a higher saddle.”
"I have not done a SIG because I:
a) am naturally commitment-phobic;
b) work Saturdays; and
c) understand ""A"" riders aren't allowed to smile. :)
However, I'm both impressed and encouraged by your posts, on and off-line, so I'm now considering it. Thanks!"
"Hey Neile,
I know you got my email when the message board was down, but I thought perhaps others in the club might be thinking about the SIG and if so, maybe the info could be helpful for them as well. So I'm posting that email here.
Chaim said it as well - better - than I could have. Hey, remember that old Paul Newman movie, ""Cool Hand Luke""? Paul Newman played this ornery prisoner in a Southern jail, always causing problems, always making trouble. The Warden said, ""We gotta get your thinking straight"". Neile, ""we gotta get your thinking straight"".
The A Classic Sig won't work for you unless you can make the commitment. That commitment is primary. It's being out there every Saturday, and as Chaim says, being available for make up Sundays. It's training during the week. Not just toodling around on your bike, serious training. During the season, my ""perfect"" bike week is the Saturday SIG Ride, Sunday Gimbels Ride, Monday off, Tuesday three laps race paced in the Park at 6:00 AM, Wednesday 3 laps kind of easy, Thursday 3 laps race paced in the Park, Friday off. My perfect week is 5 days of riding. You don't have to do that. I do, I'm old. But commitment, that's key.
Oh, man, that Saturday job is a problem. Gotta be able to do something about that for the SIG. Quit! Yeah, sure.
And when it comes to smiling, as long as I don’t see you do it, it's okay.
If you can get yourself out there Neile, do the rides, do the program, I promise you you'll have more fun on your bike than you've ever had in any one Spring. Not only that, you'll be in better shape, know more about your bike and your body, and you will be fast. And . . . . . . . you'll do more bicycle smiling than you've ever done in your life. If you do the program, you will be an A rider
I've done it for 20 years, and I do it because I haven't found more fun on my bike.
Hope to see you out there."
Now, if only they had Sunday Sigs I would be ther in a flash.
Rob
Rob, I'm telling you, quit that Saturday job!
The Classic A Sig is the quintessential NYCC experience. No doubt all the othe Sigs are fine but they are derivative of the Classic, the grand daddy of them all. It is not for everybody. But it is the best bargin in New York, bar none. This program is Quality with a capital Q.
"Hmmmm. ""If only it was a job""
Can't do. On Saturday, I report to a higher authority.
Rob"
"""A"" riders actually smile all the time because it is so darn easy to go fast in a tight pace line.
Other riders just never realize it because they are always seeing their backs.
Come to the SIG and find out the truth!"
I have read this thread with lots of interest. I too am thinking of taking the plunge and participating in the A SIG next spring. I did the B SIG a few years ago and have continued riding -- bought a new bike this summer and have fallen in love with cycling all over again. The posts in this thread have been very positive and encouraging. Thanks.
Hi Denise,
I'm the Captain of the A Classic Sig for 2006. This is news - that I'm the Captain. I'm so excited. It was just announced about 20 minutes ago that I'm going to be the Captain of the 20th SIG. I'm excited. And nervous. I better start training right now. You got a new bike? It's always so exciting getting a new bike. What did you get? Have you decided if you are going to do the A Classic or the A 19? I was only kidding in one of my previous posts about not being allowed to smile. Neile knows I was just kidding. You should know that too. We do allow smiling on the A Classic SIG, a little smiling, once in a while. Only kidding.
"Hey Neile, keep this thread going. I'm gone, out of town, actually out of the country, till October 11th. If anyone would like to discuss the SIG with me privately, I will have a dedicated SIG Email address in a week or two. I'll post it here when I get it. It may even be published on the Club website one day soon. I'll be sure it is.
It's been fun talking about cycling, pacelines, the SIG on this message board. Somehow, I think there's more to come. I hope so. Hey Denise, hope to see you out there. Also John, great idea about talking with my buddy up in Connecticut. I knew that about him, that he's got a bunch of crates of old Campy stuff around. I forgot. Memory, they say it's the first to go!
Neile, I'm sorry but I don't recall if you and I have met before. Interesting name, ""Neile"". Are you a boy or a girl? If we haven't met, with my name - ""Christy"" - you may be wondering if I'm a boy or girl. I'm a boy! Hank, great compliment to the SIG. Considering the source, you, I take it very seriously. Thanks.
Natalia, sorry I missed you. Anthony Poole's comments are right on target. If you'd like to talk with me about it, feel free. Hey, Anthony, I don't remember that mid Februry fun ride you referred to. Great idea! If we've been doing it, we will continue doing so. If not, we are going to do it in 2006. Let's hope for more global warming - no, no, no, I don't want global warming - just a January thaw. . . . continued in February . . . .and thru March, 2006.
Talk soon,
Christy"
"Boy.
Early 50's, 5'7"", stocky build, crew cut, goatee.
(If you're no longer interested, I understand.)"
Maybe it was just the A19 leaders that did that mid-February informal, met-the-leaders ride. Sorry if I misled.
Good Service
