"Allen:
(I return to the opening of this letter after completing it to note I have written it about a more encompassing grievence than I thought when I began it. For that reason, I am sending copies of this to the parks commissioner, his deputy, and the head of the Central Park Conservancy because I invoke them and their responsibility in this.)
You will, I hope and trust, recall my interviewing you in your office last year for an article I was writing, and did write, about use of the Central Park roads. We spoke of the need for consideration by cyclists for runners' right to their lane(s) and the concomitant need of runners' consideration for cyclists' right to the use of the dedicated cycling lane—and to the need that all park users, including pedestrians who mindlessly walk in the middle of the roadway when cars are not in the park to the code to adhere to the rules of the park road.
I must report the following based on what I witnessed and experienced yesterday, Sunday, May 8 in the Mother's Day race promoted and supervised by the New York Road Runners. Runners by the hundreds were fanned across the entirety of the road, not only squeezing cyclists to a narrow strip, one (careful) bike width wide along the easternmost curb, but doing so amid cries of ""asshole,"" ""fuck you,"" and ""get out of the park"" at them.
In fact, those first two phrases must be part of the sport of road running. When I ride laps when cars are in the park and civilly ask runners in the cycling lane to run in their lane as I slow down to narrowly pass them, not infrequently those same phrases come back.
I believe the Mother's Day race was supposed to be confined to the runners' lane(s). Failing that, one would think any overflow at least would be confined to one of the two auto lanes. However, as I said, runners were fanned out across the entire width of the road.
There was virtually no marshalling evident, and what exceedingly little there was, was wholly ineffective.
Here's my idea: the New York Road Runners makes it clear to entrants on their entry form for all races any runner seen outside whatever you and the parks department designate for runners during the race shall be expelled from the club and refused entry into any of your events. Period. Spotters and video cameras can take numbers off the bib.
The experience of cyclists having to carefully, cautiously, slowly thread their way through runners was of a piece with the general willfulness of park runners who, when cars are permitted in the park, run in the dedicated cycling lane with a total absence of consideration for cyclists, obliging cyclists to either stop behind them or drift out into traffic, among the speeding cars.
Doug Blonsky of the Central Park Conservancy, to whom the Parks Department has ceded operation of the park (is it really the case a private figure representing a private organization is ceded authority over a public venue?) was not of a mind to effectively deal with this when I spoke with him about this.
Mr. Blonsky referred to the the signage informing runners and cyclists of proper lane use. That signage is so deficient as to be utterly and completely worthless. Not only is there a continuous 4.3 mile gap in signs along the 6 mile course, but those signs that are there are largely unseen, and, if seen, unreadable by their placement, color, and design.
From the nightly throngs of runners in the cycling/skating lane when cars are allowed in the park, it appears neither Mr. Blonsky, Mr. Benepe, nor Deputy Parks Commissioner Cavanaugh ride, walk, or, dare I say, drive, occasional circuits of the park during these times; otherwise surely they would do something about the safety problem posed by the incursion of various users into others' dedicated lanes. Neither park rangers nor the police inform errant users of the roadway.
Mr. Blonsky was not receptive to my suggestion the lanes themselves be mar"
Runners in cycling lane: Ltr to NYRR Pres. Steinfeld et al.
I was able to do 3 good laps Sunday morning while the runners were still racing and didn't have a single problem. I was out about halfway into their half marathon. Perhaps they were pretty spread out at that point. Not sure if there were multiple races that morning.
While I was out runners stayed largely on their side of the road - a few occasionally entering a little bit into the first car lane next to them. But none were across the whole road. The only place I had to slow down was by their finish line.
I saw multiple marshals. I've run a few nyrr races myself and there were always marshals keeping us to the side.
Honestly, it's kind of hard to be so ridgid about it. Share the park! A big huge running race taking over the road for a bit is not that big a deal. Especially if after 1/2 hour into it they're spread out enough to not be an issue. Just wait it out and enjoy the sites. Be a little flexible. Ride earlier/later. Or head up to Nyack.
And by the way most of us bikers are bending the law by going faster than we're allowed and not yeilding to the traffic signals or pedestrians. Can't handle people running a bit outside of the running lines? How do you think they feel with us going through lights at 20 mph?
I'm no lawyer but the rule is we're supposed to yeild to pedestrians. So everytime we whistle or hit the bell to keep someone from crossing in front of us technically WE're actually the ones in the wrong.
Want to idiot proof the roads? What if along with your bike/run markers they put bike speedlimit signs everywhere? What about having to stop at every red light? Forget about breaking a 20 minute lap!
"Bill,
There may have been more than one race going on. A friend of mine who rides 10,000 miles a year was in it. He emailed me, prior to this thread:
""...on sunday: my first new york road runners race in cp. it was a blast and i loved watching all the frustrated cyclists trying to get through the mobs. we took over the entire roadway. anyway, i ran faster than i thought i would. did the 5k in ...""
So yes the runners were admitedly all across the road.
Also, Richard wasn't trying to do laps in the park. He _was_ trying to leave. Not that it matters.
jeff"
I share Richard's frustations - Lord knows I share them - but definitely not his attitude. I agree with Bill's points about dealing with it and about riding in the park. Richard may be fine with stopping at every light in Central Park, but I am not yet that is where his approach leads (I will yield to pedestrians unlike many who tear through red lights and yell at pedestrians to boot).
This is a not only a crazy park but a crazy city where so many are so oblivious. It's a coping mechanism - why take it personally? Why think you can change it? Since I am not a cop, since I don't want to be a cop, I have to accept it and work around it. If you start telling everyone how to behave - strangers and New Yorkers to boot - and you don't have a badge, I am sure they are going to curse you in reply. I probably would too.
Here is some genius advice: If you want to do some serious cycling, do not go to Central Park on the weekends. If you want to do leisurely cycling, who cares if you have to slow down from time to time for the great crowds in that great oasis.
"...but, tell me, are you saying when this happened to you, there were 3,4,or 5 abreast in the runner's lane? Or, for that matter, even one abreast? If so, he/they were doubly in the wrong. Or, just maybe, were you/the runners in a cycling lane?
Even so, swearing really is far, far less effective than admonishing people to use the dedicated lanes for the benefit and safety of all, don't you agree? And don't you agree swearing is ineffective because it is so easy to dismiss it as juvenalia and the speaker along with it?
Even a sarcastic ""thanks"" as you negotiate around a runner in the cycling lane is somewhat superior to that.
However, yellling ""Move over"" to a runner impeding the right-of-way of cyclists in a cycling lane, especially when the running lane is unpopulated, doesn't strike me as a misuse of language. Blurting out, Agreed, ""Runner's lane!"" might communicate the same thing and, at the same time, educate. That is, of course, if you have an interest in bringing order to the use of the park's roadways for the greater safety and welfare of all park users. Maybe you don't; I do.
As for my own foul mouth, which is, I grant you, plenty foul, I turn it on myself often and vehemently when I f up (this site's auto-censor just had its way with me—which I do frequently. But I don't find that an effective or informative way to communicate with others.
(I do recalling yelling ""Schmuck!"" at a driver of a Mercedes on the narrow Mortirolo who pushed me off the road. It only occurred to me later that area of N. Italy is much frequented by German tourists and the driver could very well have been German, in which case he likely thought I was exclaiming my admiration for his car as schmuck means ""jewel"" in German.
Mindful of Laura Bush doing a masturbation joke before the assembled White House press corps, dignitaries, luminaries, and a national TV audience on C-span a few days ago, let's see if this note survives in tact....
Richard
P.S. Why not sign your broadside. You are convinced you are in the right therefore you shouldn't shrink from being associated with your opinion."
"I'm an active member of NYRR (I run in the park on Tuesday and Thursday nights with the club) and an active member of NYCC.
I ride in the park regularly and other than the random tourist that seems to wander in the lane I've never had a major problem on the weekdays. I ride in the early mornings because I don't like to fight the crowds. I appreciate your frustrations but ask, what kind of workout did you really expect to get in Central Park on a Sunday morning after 8 am in the spring?
You specifically attack the actions of the NYRR. I don't think the runners are the only group to bear fault in this case.
I assure you that at EVERY run when we enter the park by the museum the ""run leaders"" remind us to stay in the running lane. They also continually remind us to move over during the entire run. Don't believe me? come out and join us and you'll see. They also will keep people from crossing at a green light when bikers come speeding through, against the lights, completely disobeying traffic rules. On Tuesday and Thursday nights it's usually the bikers that are screaming at the runners to get off the road NOT the other way around. I believe the number of runners in the club presents an issue with sharing the roadway (lots of runners not alot of road) but the leaders ALWAYS pull us off the roadway onto the sidewalks when we are stopped.
I ran on the half marathon Sunday and again it was the bikers screaming at the runners to get off the road. Granted at the start it was a bit chaotic and admittedly the runners were spread out across the road but it certainly thinned out after the first 2 miles and every marshal I ran by instructed me to move into the running lane.
You have indicated you would like to have ""WRITTEN on the road (no ambiguous icons) in the inner lane around the entire park: ...... ..... ....."" I'm wondering what language or languages you would use? What about the tourist that are here visiting our great city, are you assuming they all speak English fluently enough to read the directions?
A lot of good has come from your activism but some times when I read your posts here on the message board I feel the need to attach a disclaimer to your statements indicating they are not necessarily the views of the entire membership...."
While I was working on my post at the East Drive & E 90 st, during the middle of Bike New York, two middle aged women runners came up to me in a huff. They were complaining that bicyclists were not supposed to be in the runners lane. Pretty much the exact opposite of the complaint that you are listing here.
I explained to them that there are special occasions (1 day a year to be exact) when bicyclists take over the park for a very short time. I went on to say that there are many more days when runners take over the park to the exclusion of bicyclists (Marathon, Revlon 5k, and so many others). They did not want to hear this. They threatened to call everybody from my Captain to the Mayor, and finally left.
The fact is: the Park hosts special events. You may not be able to do whatever you want, whenever you want. I am sure that an hour after you left the Park, the lanes were clear of runners en mass, and you could have done your laps much more easily.
--Scooter Cop
(yeah the one from the 59th St Bridge writing the tickets, Richard)
"once again, it's very helpful to know that the plaintiffs were middle-aged and female. Yes, just the type to get huffy.
if they had been teenaged and black, i wonder if they would have gotten ""aggressive""
or if they were Asian, would they have been roller-blading against traffic?
and if they were cyclists, would they have been militant anti-runners?"
"I hope you got past the first line to get the point I was trying to make. Even if they were 2 men, the way that they came up to me was best described as ""in a huff"".
Now, in stereotypical fashion, I'm going back to reading the paper in my patrol car, coffee and donuts close at hand, not giving a sh!t.
"
Another point that I may have added to the letter:
The CRCA holds bicycle races for its members in the Park. The CRCA marshalls such events and there are lane restrictions that all competitors must adhere to or a participant receives a violation. Violations can result in a member being suspended from participating in races. Certainly if the CRCA enforces such a policy when using the park, it is reasonable for NYRR to have a similar policy and suspend and/or refuse to allow violators to participate in NYRR events.
I am confused. Are there different lanes for runners and cyclists? I never noticed that.
I just assumed that when there were cars in the park we rode between the cars and the runners. And when the park was closed to cars we just tried not to hit anyone.
When the park drive is closed to vehicles, are cyclists still considered vehicles and have to stop at the lights?
Do we actually have a lane for cycling?
As an aside, is there anyone that has to yield for cyclists? We have to yield for both cars and pedestrians.
The innermost lane is always, always, ALWAYS exclusively, solely, and only for runners, joggers, and walkers. Always.
The lane next to it is never, ever for runners, joggers, and walkers during the times cars are permitted in the park.
When cars are permitted in the park, that lane is never, ever to be used by skaters or cyclists. During that time they are to ride/skate soley in the main roadway.
It's no surprise you didn't know this: the effort to inform about this has been nil. ...Although one would hope runners might find some meaning in those dopey icons of bikes in the so-called cycling lane.
And now that I've called your attention to them, I almost defy you to find the signs indicating lane use. Hint: They do exist.
Richard
The CP Conservancy web site lists the rules here:
http://www.centralparknyc.org/thingstodo/sports/bikeriding
Note the rules include a 15 mph speed limit!
Please, I need to know what you look like so I can never ride with you. I can't believe that you have never seen the lanes marked for runners and cyclists in the Park. They are all along the left side of the roadway, but that depends on which or what direction YOU ride.
For one, I avoid the park as much as possible.
The only time I go to the park is to meet a group for rides on the weekends. So the park is closed and people are walking and running and skating and cycling any where they please. So I just try not to hit anyone.
The thing that bothers me the most are the dogs that are not leashed. It was my impression that there is a leash law in NYC.
A few weeks ago, I was riding across the George Washington Bridge and a woman was running with her dog in the opposite direction. The dog was on a long leash, and it darted out into my path about 20 feet ahead of me. Fortunately, I had enough time to avoid it. I shudder to think what a crash would have been like.
I just got the chills thinking about that.
I almost got taken out by the same thing on the bridge. I encountered them during the blind turns. The woman got mad at me for some reason. She was on the outside, the dog was on the inside, there was no where to go.
Did you ever get your 17 cent discount? It seems to me, and don't take this the wrong way, that you have problems with people. The guy at the bike shop being rude to you, runners cursing at you, etc. Have you ever looked in the mirror or sought professional help?
Jane:
Do you really think the issue was 17¢? After my money was already out and I was ready to pay before talk of the price? After I spent more than that to speak with Steve on the phone? Do you really really think 17¢ was the issue? Do you?
What did you do to oppose the imposition of a speed limit on bikes in the park? What would you have done?
What did you do to open up River Road to cyclists? What would you have done?
What did you do to open up the south side of the GWB to cyclists? What would you have done?
History is replete with reformers who were reviled for their efforts.
History is also replete with people who won't make the effort to improve their circumstances but who will gladly (and, one might also say, parasitically) piggyback on the work and efforts of others.
Here's a starter project for you: Call 311. Tell the city to resurface the road on 176th St. on both sides of the Pinehurst intersection. That's the approach to the GWB and it is a street of uplifts and depressions. Nah, forget it. I've procrastinated doing this for several years. I'll do it tomorrow.
Please know my helmet is off to you for having the grace to sign your remarks.
-Richard
Richard - Since you have been involved in those important accomplishments for cyclists, you deserve great credit and great kudos. I and many are indebted to you. Thank you.
But that does not alter the fact that you SOMETIMES come across on this message board as a real, um, jerk.
"Richard, that you feel compelled to trumpet your accomplishments, to me at least, comes across as egomaniacal.
As per the running-race issue, the days I've gotten caught in a crowded park, the thought running through my head was ""I should have known that this was happening and just avoided the park,"" not ""These people are all here to ruin my morning.""
If reform is your goal, remember the old adage about catching flies with honey instead of vinegar."
A recurring problem I encounter here is people simply don't read, at least not with any care...do they, Ms. Anon?
I read and re-read my post and I struggle in vain to see wherein in it I say it was I who accomplished those several things. Now that you've brought it up, except for one of them, while I was a contributor to the fight, by no means was I the primary mover/agitator/reformer/or whatever disparaging characterization you wish to apply to the gallant, brilliant, and long-and-hard-working soul who was.
If you promise to make a contribution to his organization no matter how petty (and I'm sure it would be), (no, it most certainly is not TA, nor is it the worthy Time's Up, both of which I'm sure you support with your time or money), I'll give you his name and his very worthy organization's name.
Given your hiding your identity--why are you reluctant to be responsible for your opinion and insult?--I can't write you; but you have my true name and e-address above. Write and tell me you'll donate a dollar, oh, hell, make it a quarter to this great worker for cyclists' and pedestrians' rights and I'll name him and direct you to his organization.
Richard, aka, and variously called here: jerk, a-hole, egomaniac, bully, pompous, and I can't recall what else.
Richard - I often enjoy, as here, reading your comments.
While I applaud what you have done I detest your pompous attitude. While many cyclists do little things every day to promote the sport and good will, as well as larger things, we try not to be a-holes about our efforts. You, on the other hand, come across like a bully who has some sort of self-entitlement.
Don't you mean 177th? Besides, that's a 2-way stop sign, which, if not for the big hole, lots of cyclists would just ignore.
"A few things to add to this thread.
Central Park is the quintessential ""Land of Many Uses."" We only manage to make it happen by give and take. As was stated earlier, road races tend to thin out as the event progresses. Due to the bell shaped curve of statistics, the race looks like a snake that swallowed an elephant. The longer the race, the more the elephant is digested. So, if you catch the event early or if it is a short race sharing the road can be problematic.
To be fair to the NYRR officials, they do announce prior to the start, the need to keep to the running lane. But you know how people are. About a month ago I was caught behind a large group of cyclists who were unaware of the concept of social consciousness. No one was getting by them. And I was on a bike.
It's not runners, it's people."
While Richard and I have occasionally pared and I don't always agree with him, I admire his convictions and advocacy. On the matter at hand, I heartily agree with Richard and while I was not affected by the incident that prompted Richard to write his letter, I am glad he reiterated Central Park rules to the organization not only holding the event in question, but one having some influence with runners, not that I expect much to change. Richard is almost always correct with details and the bike line is in fact for bikes only when the park is open to traffic. Yes, enforcement is nil and God forbid if on a lonely, cold winter night a couple of stalwart riders on mountain bikes appear on the sacrosanct reservoir trail...
...or, you could just get off your bike for 2 mins and cheer on the runners as they pass by. Supporting eachothers events rather than scorning one groups use of the park...
Then again, I may be biased as I am both an avid cyclist & runner.
I actually saw Richard, proceeding north on the east drive as I was proceeding south in the Women's Half Marathon. He looked unencumbered. Richard, you must have run into the start of the 5K which was a co-ed race, starting at 8:05, also heading north, and probably including the people who swore at you. It's true that the races have become FAR more crowded in recent years, I don't like it either. The marshalls do a great job, it's not a very rewarding one, but they do their best to contain hundreds, no thousands, of runners all starting at once on a fairly narrow road. Like the poster above, I too am a runner and cyclist, and as such find that it not only makes me acutely aware of the faults of both, but also makes me more tolerant of, and sympathetic to, both.
I was in the Park Sunday as well. As runners were trying to take over the roadway going south, marshalls were on bullhorns telling runners, at that moment, to stay to their right, keep in the lane, thus avoiding any collisions with other runners, pedestrians, and cyclists.
The race, well, the runners of which I wrote was heading south, not north as Judith speculates, and was, indeed, comprised of men and women. As earlier noted, I rode along the east curb. To have ridden anywhere other than that would have put me in line with the swarm.
I really am not tilting for or against cyclists or runners. My argument simply is all should adhere to the system in place for safety and predictability. It fairly takes my breath away there's an argument to be made against that very modest proposal.
If the runners want to change the system or road use or change the terms under which they are granted use of the road for their races, fine. But adhere to the prevailing conditions and when runners are spread out on the road in a race that supposedly confines them to the inner two lanes and maybe the one car lane, they aren't. When cyclists incur into the runner's lane(s) they aren't.
Is there really a serious argument to be made against this? Geeze, who woulda thought that renegade/radical I would be the spokesman for order whereas supposedly temperate types speak for anarchic use of the roads?
"Richard, the 5K started at around East 70th and headed NORTH to a turnaround at about 88th Street. So, as the race ""thins out"", in this case it actually doesn't; instead, you have a thousand odd progressing north while the other thousand were coming back heading south. No wonder the marshalls had their hands full; in this instance the runners are just going to spill into the roadway. You landed in the wrong place at the wrong time! This only happens with short races (usually 5Ks) and it would have only lasted from 20 to 40 minutes or so.
I'd be interested to hear what Allan has to say in response to your letter. Incidentally, in the future you should probably be addressing such letters to Mary Wittenberg who has taken over the reins."
"Richard,I am a NYCC member and also a NYRRC member,I am in the park every weekend.You come across as an egotistical snobbish bore who I can only guess when you don't see things ""your"" way it has to be WRONG!You sound like a real jerk,I don't think I'll be renewing my membership again,enjoy the park by youself....making up ""Richard's rules as you go.....JERK"
Richard, the language you've used in this posting is not appropriate on this public forum...Regardless of the context.
"Hmm. It's worth noting my being called an ""a-hole"" didn't offend your sensibilities but my (expunged)reply in which I used the medical word for that did.
Can you spell ""hypocrisy""? Oh, never mind: I just did."
Keep in mind what you're railing against in railing against me, what you're opposing in opposing me on this.
You're against informing park users about the Park Dept.'s own rules of the road for the increased safety and enjoyment of all.
You're against park rangers calling park users' attention to the Park Dept's. own rules of the road.
You're against bringing order and predictability to park users' use of the road.
You want to continue the status quo where runners are having to dodge cyclists in the running lane and cyclists have to dodge runners in the cycling lane. Or at least you're utterly and wholly unwilling to do anything practical to remedy the chaotic, anarchic situation that exists wherein people are concerned only about themselves. But, then, that really is the Great Unifying Principle of all New York, isn't it?
As for me, what I seek is better, more seeable, more comprehensive and more comprehensible signage, conscientious patrolling by park rangers and perhaps leafleting by them to runners and cyclists alike, informing them of the rules of the road, and consideration of all roadway users for the safety of others within the framework of the Park Dept.'s rules of the road.
It turns out as between you (and all those many others who beleaguer me for this campaign) and me, I'm the greater advocate for care, order, responsibility, consideration, and safety. Ain't that a surprise?
Great suggestions Richard. And great follow through on many of your ideas.
It's a shame to have your excellent contributions nullified because the human factor was handled crudely.
We are natural allies of the NYRRs and as a prominent and vociferous NYCCer you act in part as our ambassador.
(And partly as our unofficial curmudgeon- I guess every group needs one)
Lets get the job done AND create good will. Then we'll really have something!
"There's the law, and there's reasonable reality. It sounds like you got caught up in a short out-and-back road race. It is reasonable to expect that in this type of situation the loop road is going to be very crowded for a short time.
I think your heart is in the right place. You'd like to see the existing rules clearly enforced for the benefit of all. But you are completely over-reacting to this situation.
To use your words:
""Here's my idea: the New York Road Runners makes it clear to entrants on their entry form for all races any runner seen outside whatever you and the parks department designate for runners during the race shall be expelled from the club and refused entry into any of your events. Period. Spotters and video cameras can take numbers off the bib.""
So the next time you run a red light or break the Central Park speed limit or fail to yield to a pedestrian, the NYCC should expel you?"
"Tom, Tom, fictitious Tom:
There is a distinction between conduct that jeopardizes or compromises others or simply makes them apprehensive and conduct that doesn't. It's a pretty important distinction.
All who beleaguer me here would do well to emulate the real Tom Paine. He was an irrepressible, righteous, radical who pitted himself against the nonsensical status quo in an effort to bring reason to bear on society's conditions and thereby improve them and, in his case, the lives of the colonials, and transform what became the United States. His seminal treatise was called ""Common Sense.""
What have I written in this entire thread that is not commmon sense?
____________
P.S. Hereby, an apology to ""Tom"" if he read my original post here before I (just) amended it: it was far, far too abrasive and, on that account, inappropriate. My apology."
And Michael Jackson likens himself to Gandhi and Mother Teresa.
"And yet again do I find myself hoping in vain that people here read with thought.
""Irony"" is a much overused and mis-used word, but Dear Anon., do you fail to appreciate the irony in someone taking as a pen name in order to hide his identity the name of a person whose values and character he seems to oppose?
OK, let's go on to a simpler question and maybe anonymous you can answer this for all the other anon. interlocutors here; but let's think in terms of just you:
What reason do you suppose posters such as yourself hide behind anonymous names other than they (read: you) are ashamed of or embarrassed by their opinions and bleatings and don't want to be associated/identified with them?
"
Richard,how do you mamage to stay up-right on a bike?...you are so full of youself it must be rather hard...you ever think you just like hearing the sound of your own voice?
oh boo hoo, you won't be renewing your membership? Well, i think in that case Richard should just resign in shame, and give up all his other pursuits of life, liberty, and safe cycling.
I'll see the rest of you in the bike lane. (I'm the one slowing down for pedestrians at red lights but shaving the hair off the arms of cellphone zombies.)
"I think we all know who ""beat it"" is."
yeah, sure you do. Etoain Shrdlu in drag??
i could only hope to be as funny. . . .
Not funny, but definitely much prettier. That's funny like ha ha, not queer funny.
Go Yankees
Would any of the contributors to this animated and erudite discussion care to volunteer to escort lead elite runners on May 22 and/or June 11? See post: Volunters on this board.
