Yes, I'm bringing up the neverending struggle of Campy vs. Shimano.
I'm building up a bike and am not sure what groupos to use. By now we're all aware of how great Chorus is but I'm not sure how the new Ultegra 10 spd stacks up against it. Any feedback you can give is greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Campy Chorus vs. Shimano Ultegra 10 spd
Wed, 01/05/2005 - 11:24am
Wed, 01/05/2005 - 12:23pm
#1
Campy
I'm sure the new 10 speed Ultegra is fine, but I'd go Campy all the way. It is backwards and forwards compatible, meaning you can mix and match different components from Campy 10 speed groppos. Ergo shifters, as well as their derailleurs, are completely rebuildable if one should get damaged by a crash etc.. I broke an 8 speed ergo shifter in a crash and had the internals placed in a a new ergo shifter body for less then half the price of a new individual shifter.
Everything else aside, see which one fits your hands better. Shimano shifters have a longer reach on the bars then Campy, but a shorter brake lever reach from the drops.
Wed, 01/05/2005 - 12:44pm
#2
Do you like Ergo shifters or STI shifters?
I've never met a serious cyclist who had ridden both and was indifferent to this question. If you haven't ridden both, borrow a friend's bike and have a go at both systems. If you're set on buying a gruppo, this will make up your mind.
Of course, there are plenty of ways to mix and match Shimano/Campy, too, if that's of interest. You can keep this in mind if you're leaning toward Campy, since Campy basically has no gruppo discount anymore. The same won't really hold true if you're looking at Ultegra.
When Ultegra used Octalink bbs, I would have cautioned against purchasing an Ultegra crank/bb, but now that they've gone to external bearings, I think it's a wash.
Either way, they're very nice gruppos.
Best of luck,
- Christian
Wed, 01/05/2005 - 4:19pm
#3
absolutely agree on the issue of shifters. for my 2nd bike, i used chorus and like it almost as much as record on 1st bike -- in fact, difference appears to be entirely psychological, regardless of what the gadget mavens might say. while backward compatibility is desirable, more worthwhile perhaps is feature that allows you to shift multiple gears at once...just my two cents...
Thu, 01/06/2005 - 6:51am
#4
re: shift multiple gears at once
Frank, how old are you? That's only a consideration for the venerable club members. For the Atari (me included), Nintendo, now X-Box generations, such rapid firing is not a problem.
My 2 waving hands of advice is to choose the one with the most comfortable shifters. Specifically, comfort while riding with the hands on the hoods; that's where my hands are 75% of the time while riding.
Fri, 01/07/2005 - 8:08am
#5
getting older every year
best wishes for a speed recovery, Peter. actually, despite the ability to shift through the gears one at a time (rapidly or not), i rather like the ability to multiple shift capability, especially when i've chosen the wrong gear going uphill. the other reason for perhaps choosing the campy set up is that
Wed, 01/05/2005 - 2:23pm
#6
campy all the way:
1)more durable
2)replacement parts
3)cheaper!....(what the #$%^ ?!)
4)you get carbon (not really important)
Thu, 01/06/2005 - 6:59am
#7
Gruppo
"""I'm building up a bike and am not sure what groupos to use.""
No such thing as a ""groupo."" It's either a group or a gruppo (if you speak Italian).
Chorus is about the equivalent of Dura Ace, not Ultegra. Centaur is about the equivalent of Ultegra. Campagnolo shifters are repairable while Shimano is not.
""Chainwheel"""
Sat, 01/08/2005 - 5:47pm
#8
shimano vs. campy: red vs. blue?
I'd love to see if anyone ever did a map of component preferences (like the electorial map) with red for Campy and Blue for Shimano. Might be kinda funny.
Thu, 01/06/2005 - 4:38pm
#9
Ergopower front shifter better adjustability
"Ergopower left shifters allow finer adjustment to ""trim"" the front derailleur than STI. Especially helpful if using a triple crank.
STI shifters supposedly have a longer life expectancy than Campy, and Campy rebuild parts are said to be hard to get.
I use Shimano SIS indexing bar ends myself, work great and last forever."
Thu, 01/06/2005 - 4:47pm
#10
Rich Herbin. Wow. Talk about venerable club members.:-)
I still remember you using Chapstick to lube your clipless pedals.
Thu, 01/06/2005 - 8:41pm
#11
Long Life Expectancy With Shimano Shifters?
This is the opposite of what I've heard and I have experience with both. Campy is an easy re-build. A good shop that sells Campy can get all the parts you need.
Fri, 01/07/2005 - 10:11am
#12
Campy parts
Campy parts and upgrade information are available at bradfordbikes.com. The shifters can be overhauled/ converted from 8>9>10 speed by replacing the index cam, a $31.00 part. Campy provides better chainring options (40/50 double/triple) but poorer cassette options, no 12-25 9 or 10-speed.
9-speed Shimano hub/cassettes work with Ergo shifters.
Fri, 01/07/2005 - 11:29am
#13
Campy 12-25
I'd almost never even dare to disagree with Fred about anything technical, but I'll bet at least a buck that my standard Campy 10 speed rear cassettee is a 12-25, hitting every tick from 12 to 17 and then 19, 21, 23 and 25. Maybe Fred means no 12-27, which is true for sure.
Fri, 01/07/2005 - 1:18pm
#14
Ez Money
"Russ, you'll win that bet. If you go to the Branford site (with the correct spelling) it's right there in black and white pixels.
Sorry Fred."
Sat, 01/08/2005 - 2:48pm
#15
no 12-27
No bet. That was a typo. I use a 12-25. Its a 12-27 Campy refuses to offer. 13-26 is useless in 9 and 10 speed setups.
Mon, 01/10/2005 - 12:47pm
#16
13-26 or 12-27
"Fred,
I don't understand. Why do you say that ""13-26 is useless in 9 and 10 speed setups""? For me, a 13-26 would be much more useful, because I'd never use the 12 with a 52 or 53 chainring, but the 16 and 18, which are missing from the 12-27, would be used a lot. I think that Shimano's 9-speed cassette selection is the one that is wanting, with no D.A. or Ultegra cassettes starting with a 13.
Also, Shimano doesn't offer any road cassette with a cog larger than 27, while Campagnolo offers a 13-29. This is an easy winner against a 12-27, as far as I'm concerned: the largest cog is 2 teeth bigger, you have a 16, and all you're missing is the 12."
Mon, 01/10/2005 - 2:04pm
#17
13-26 cassette
Some people would use an 11T with a 53T chainring....
Mon, 01/10/2005 - 3:47pm
#18
> Some people would use an 11T with a 53T chainring....
Down the east side of the Fedaia pass, maybe. And there you'll surely go faster by tucking in than you would by thrashing your legs around in the wind.
100 rpm in a 53-11 is over 38 mph. Do you know many clubmembers who can sustain 38 mph on the flats for an extended time?
From what I've seen, the vast majority would be better served by having a 29t sprocket.
- Christian
Tue, 01/11/2005 - 7:24am
#19
13-26 cassette
The 2nd, nonfacetious part of my reply is that a 13t cog forces a shift to the big ring because you're out of cogs.
If you use triple chainrings this is a consideration.
Mon, 01/10/2005 - 4:14pm
#20
Ultegra w/13 cog
There is an Ultegra 13-25 cassette (check Harris Cyclery online).
And, of course, you can make a special cassette of your own if so inclined: I took the 13, 14, 15, and 16 cogs from a Shimano 105 13-25, which I had from another project, and combined them with the 17-19 and 21-27 spiders from an Ultegra 12-27. Voila! A 13-14-15-16-17-19-21-24-27 cassette that I use with 34-48 chainrings. The gearing would be too low for many riders, but it works OK for me.
Tue, 01/11/2005 - 7:04am
#21
10 Speed Campy cassette
12 - 13 - 14 - 15 - 16 - 17 - 19 - 21 - 23 - 25
Russ, when you're right, you're right.
Cheers
Mon, 01/10/2005 - 6:45am
#22
That's Branford
Fri, 01/07/2005 - 11:45am
#23
life expectancy
I seriously question whether Shimano STI shifters outlast Ergopowers. I've rarely seen an Ergopower shifter problem requiring more than a simple cleaning/lube or adjustment (other than in a crash). However, I've been on many rides over the years where someone's STI broke down, requiring a complete REPLACEMENT.
Fri, 01/07/2005 - 5:57pm
#24
Campy Problems
I have Campy shifters - about 2 1/2 years old, less than 10,000 miles. When the bike was almost brand new, the brake pin came out of the right shifter (while I was going down Mount Ventoux, thank you). Then recently I needed a complete overhaul of the right shifter - index cog was worn, springs needed replacing. While I'm glad the Campy has replaceable parts, I don't know why this shifter wore out so quickly.
Sat, 01/08/2005 - 6:31am
#25
That's terrible, sorry to hear about that. You're one of those rare cases. I hope you have better luck from now on!
Sat, 01/08/2005 - 3:17pm
#26
Ergo reliability
I 'broke' a right side Chorus Ergo shifter twice. There was defective piece in the 1999 design. After the 2nd warranty repair the shifters lasted 15,000 miles until the Racing Triple rear dereilleur (Athena>Centaur level) died @ 20,000 mi.(unreplacable return spring).
I 'downgraded' to a 10SP Centaur triple setup. Prefering metal shifters, the Chorus 10sp metal shifters were very expensive vs Centuar. The Centaur stopped clicking at 4,000 miles, broken spring my guess. Another warranty repair. The new Centaur (2004)shifters shift was well as the old Chorus (1999)but don't feel as solid. I think the difference is the ball bearings. If the Centaur breaks again I'd considering rebuilding the Chorus for 10sp. Which is what I like about Campy, except the carbon. I cannot believe Campy doesn't offer high end metal components for 2005.
Sun, 01/09/2005 - 8:15am
#27
I guess I should have qualified my earlier post. I really meant to compare recent Ultegra 9/10 spd STI with recent Chorus 10 spd Ergopowers per the original poster - I wouldn't include Centaur in that group. I also know there were problems with some of the 90’s versions of Ergopowers, but I still think the current Chorus will outlast Ultegra, all things being equal. I think both designs are good - what it comes down to is quality of materials (metals/plastics/bearings) in the mechanisms. I agree with you about the carbon, too. It would be nice if Campy offered an alloy lever option (at a reasonable price).
Sun, 01/09/2005 - 9:55am
#28
another data point
My 9spd Ultegra shifters work just fine 7 years later. If that's not long enough than I don't know what is. By this time, if it were Campy, surely the inner shifter spring would have been shot and required servicing.
Finding someone with the skill, time and patience to repair a pair of Campy shifters is like finding a skilled watch repair man these days. Sure you could mail them up to CT; but what are you riding in the meantime while you wait for the repair?
My shifters replaced another like pair 9 speed Ultegra after a head-on crash. After the crash it still worked afterwards. If it was Campy I would have replaced them as well.
Like other consumables, replacing parts, which is possible for STI (just more limited than Ergo), is cost prohibitive. In my case I ended up buying a pair when all I really needed was a single brifter because there was such a $ disincentive not to do so (marginal cost). This is no less true for Campy, i.e. replacing a cracked lever.
The only time I've witnessed an integrated shifter fail was on a club ride last summer and it was a recent vintage Campagnolo.
Shimano has an excellent rep making fishing equipmen, including small ratchet parts like reels which are much more demanding and subject to much more adverse conditions than cycling like salt water/air, tugging tunas, etc.
Sun, 01/09/2005 - 11:39am
#29
Campy Repairs
Replacing the spring in my Campy shifter cost me about $25 at my LBS and took a day or two. I once broke the inner shift lever of my Record shifters (totally my fault, it's a long story). My shop (Renaissance) sent the shifter out to have the lever replaced and whithin a week I had it back at a cost of about half the price of a new shifter.
I've always heard Campy stuff stands up better than Shimano but as wise men (and women) on this board say, YMMV. To me the prime consideration should be what feels better, the Ergo or STI design.
Sun, 01/09/2005 - 2:35pm
#30
I've always heard Campy stuff stands up better than Shimano
"I've heard and read that, too, but one needs to consider that outside of NYC/NYCC, domestically Shimano usage by far and away trumps Campagnolo. On the flip side, C v S usage within the club is pretty close to 50-50, or at least much skewed towards Campy usage than the overall US bike population.
While not statistically significant by any stretch, the fact that a handful of Campy users have spoken out of their less than _perfect_ experience with Campy, it does not mean that such product is unreliable either.
I think the only safe conclusion to be drawn here is that the more folks using product ""X"" in aggregate, the more number of failures and misgivings will occur in aggregate with such product.
Nothing shocking or enlightening about that statement. On the other hand, the original poster's comments: ""..rarely seen an Ergopower shifter problem...I've been on many rides over the years where someone's STI broke down..."" and follow replies seem a bit specious, at least to me.
Show me some stats that prove otherwise one way or another. Only two really can answer such, Shimano and Campy with their warranty return records. It's doubtful that they'd be willing to share such infomation.
It's not really necessary anyway. Both make a quality product. I agree with Tom: the prime consideration should be what feels better to you, Ergo or STI."
Mon, 01/10/2005 - 6:53am
#31
Hmmm...
I never used my Ultegra shifters for fishing? How did you adapt them?
Mon, 01/10/2005 - 8:28am
#32
troll gone fishin'
Go to the Shimano website and view the exploding diagram for fishing reels. And voila! The internal parts closely resemble in name and appearance that of a STI shifter, with more parts and complexity.
Tue, 01/11/2005 - 10:00am
#33
Shimano's other businesses
"Peter O'Reilly wrote:
""Shimano has an excellent rep making fishing equipment, including small ratchet parts like reels which are much more demanding and subject to much more adverse conditions than cycling like salt water/air, tugging tunas, etc.""
However, their golf business hasn't been quite as successful as they hoped: http://golf.shimano-eu.com/. I suppose there isn't much demand for an integrated system of clubs and balls?"
Mon, 01/10/2005 - 6:50am
#34
Right Shifter
It's the right shifter, control for the rear derailleur. Think about it. 10.000 miles. How many times you shift? You might be applying constant pressure to the shifter and not know it. I know someone else who did the same thing. He was applying slight pressure on the shifter all the time time. After two rebuilds, the shop mentioned this to him. Something he wasn't ever aware of, but he took notice and more then two years later, no rebuild.
