trainer recommendations

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Anonymous's picture
Anonymous

I'm looking to buy a trainer for those too wet and too cold days that are coming our way. I've been told that rollers are the way to go. I'm not a racer, just a B rider looking to start doing A rides next year. Any recommendations on models/brands? I don't mind spending a little more but only if it's really worth it. Do I need a wind fan too? Thanks in advance.

Anonymous's picture
seth (not verified)
Rollers. Absolutely 100%. Only if you want to improve though.

"A trainer will teach you nothing about how wrong you are riding. Rollers will teach you everything about how wrong you are riding, and if you use them, they will correct it. You will come back in the spring and wonder how the hell people actually stay upright on their bicycles, swerving and weaving all over the road the way they do.
Keitler usually gets the highest recomendation. I've got a pair of Keitler Challenger rollers that haven't been used in about 3 years. They've got about a 1/4"" layer of dust up at my parents house. Can you buy them off me? HELL NO!
Bigger drums give smoother performance. Some say you don't need a resistance unit. I don't understand how you can use them without on since the rollers alone provide none.
It takes a while before you are able to ride for any length of time and with any finesse. You may even crash. I have. It's no big deal. Some may say that you might want to start with platform pedals. I disagree. Your pedal stroke is inconsistant enough with locking pedals, rollers will exaggerate this inconsistancy. Platform pedals will only increase your pedal stroke inconsistancy. You may want to use a stepstool to get up onto your bike. Set them up against a wall, or in a doorway, with the threshold at your elbow position. If you use them up against a wall the fan should go between it and your front wheel. You should get yourself a heavy-duty set of cheap tires.
Some claim that you cannot hammer as hard on rollers as you can on a trainer. ABSURD. I've done sprint intervals to 189 bpm."

Anonymous's picture
Gerta (not verified)
Rollers for technique...Trainers for pain and boredom

:)

Anonymous's picture
John Z (not verified)
Pain and Boredom

Only pain and boredom will make you a more powerful rider.

Anonymous's picture
Tom Laskey (not verified)
Rollers vs. Trainer

If you want to work on cardio-vascular fitness, a trainer is the way to go. CycleOps is a popular brand, there are many others as well. The big difference is in the type of resistence, magnetic vs. fan vs. fluid. Fluid offers the advantage of automatically varying the resistance so all you need to do is change gears. The others usually have some way to set the resistance on the unit.

Rollers will make you more aware of your form though it won't correct it all by itself. If you do get rollers, be prepared for an adaptation period. If you add a resistance unit, it lessens the advantage they offer of helping your form. The more resistance the easier to stay upright but the more forgiving of problems with your pedal stroke.

From what you say, I would recommend a trainer as opposed to rollers, the CycleOps fluid is what I use and I have no complaints.

Anonymous's picture
seth (not verified)
No. rollers won't correct

your form all by them selves. Riding them will. Adding a resistance fan won't lessen anything except the lack of resistance. It doesn't make them any easier to ride. Actually it makes them HARDER to ride, because you are adding resistance. So not only do you have to learn how to stay upright on rollers, but you have to learn how to apply more force AND stay upright on rollers.

How do you not get cardio-vascular fitness on rollers?

Anonymous's picture
Bob Shay (not verified)
How is your CycleOps holding up?

"I'm on the verge of a new purchase. My goal over the winter is to build core cycling strength. My choices:

1. CycleOps Fluid 2 trainer - I've read good reviews on previous message board threads but have also heard that the ""O"" rings leak.
2. A life Fitness stationary bike - offers lots of high resistance levels but has an upright seating position like on a mountain bike.

Your thoughts?

Thanks,

Bob"

Anonymous's picture
John Z (not verified)
I have a couple

Bob;

I have both the Cyclops fluid and the electronic. Both are like brand-new and both are for sale.

Anonymous's picture
Robbin (not verified)
Trainer for novice?

I have a fancy bike that has seen no love and I've let another riding season go by. I am considering a trainer purchase for cardio and weight loss exercise at home and finally hitting the C-SIG in the spring. Am I OK with a stationary trainer in this case?

Thanks!

Robbin

Anonymous's picture
Christian Edstrom (not verified)

Training indoors is a fate only slightly better than hell, and riding a trainer certainly deserves a special place there.

Rollers are loads more fun, and even they're not that fun. The Kreitler Dyno-Mites or Dyno-Lites are the ideal, but even the Performance or Tacx polycarbonate ones are ok.

I recommend riding the rollers and watching Full House at the same time. You won't need the sound on to understand the plot of any episode of that show. It got me through college winters in Chicago, anyway.

You will need a bike bikini. Or get a fixed gear Habanero for dedicated rollers work... :)

I _hate_ Dave Coulier,
- Christian

Anonymous's picture
Yogi (not verified)
Indoor Workouts

I agree w/ Christian that riding indoors is hell, so I don’t like to do it.

>You will need a bike bikini?

Not knowing that’s what they call a sweat tarp (explained later in this thread) for your bike. I was thinking that the chamois has to be pretty small to fit. Or could it be some sort of new cycling attire for people living in the blue states?

Not that there is anything wrong with it ( :-I)

Anonymous's picture
Joao (not verified)
The great rollers vs. trainers debates of '04

Rollers are not nearly as hard as most people think. Yes, unlike trainers, there is a learning curve. But after a little practice, it becomes second nature. For me, the learning period was just about 10 minutes or so. With trainers on the other hand, you don't even need to know how to ride a bike to use it.

Trainers are great for building strength. But for a more realistic training, and a better sustained cadence training, nothing beats rollers. Even better if you use a fixed-gear bike on the rollers. You have to keep a good rhythm on it, and you have to keep pushing, even if not quite as hard as on a trainer.

I had this discussion recently with a guy who was a pro racer, and he mentioned that during the off season he practices both. The trainer to build muscle, and the rollers to build endurance and maintain good cadence.

Anonymous's picture
Steven Marks (not verified)
Tacx Fortius with Real Video

For boredom the Tacx Fortius is the cure. The trainer hooks up to the computer. There is a virtual world to cycle around, the program controls the resistance of the trainer so when you are climbing you are climbing. It is able to simulate a 15% grade.

But what really makes it great are their videos of real rides that also adjust the grade as you ride. See www.tacx-video.com for samples.

Way cool.

Steve

Anonymous's picture
m diczok (not verified)
first time purchase? trainer

"Agree with Mr Laskey, would recommend trainer.

The downside of a fluid trainer is possible leaking. Earlier CycleOps models had leaking problems; that may be corrected by now though.

Personally, I think Kurt Kinetic offers a better machine:

http://www.kurtkinetic.com/roadmachine.php

Their reasoning for why theirs are more leak-proof:

http://www.kurtkinetic.com/wont_leak.php

kind regards,
Matthew"

Anonymous's picture
Hank Schiffman (not verified)
Rollers!

I have a Cyclop magnetic trainer which sits in a closet but I use my Kreitler Dyno-myte rollers. The drums are small enough to offer all the resistance I can handle in my smallest cogs/largest ring. I am able to easily get my heartrate into LT land and stay there. I can go hard/easy by shifting cogs. Fred Steinberg has given me a hard time when I count roller mileage as part of my total yearly mileage but they are hard earned miles and, since the front wheel spins, the cycle computer runs. You get mileage, speed, & cadence. You will need a sweat bikini for your bike and fan or open window. The trainer just kept eating up my tires and gave me the feeling of being on a kludge. The rollers are so much more elegant. But I do think you need to get something like the type I have with inherent resistance.
What I don't understand is what a fellow who attends to a double reed instrument would be doing on a trainer. Perhaps El Ex Presidente likes to fuss with the resistance setting.

Anonymous's picture
Tom Laskey (not verified)

I have both the CycleOps trainer and Kreitler Dyno-Lyte rollers and I use them both regularly. There is no question that I get a better cardio workout from the trainer. I also find it easier to stay on the trainer for longer periods of time. If I have the right music and the right workout plan I can go for an hour no problem and have gone for as long as 2 hours. Plus, one can vary one's workout a lot more on a trainer than on rollers. On the trainer, I can do hill workouts, where I set the resistance high enough so I can stand up and stomp away. I can't approach anything like that on the rollers. Some people can do one legged peddling drills on rollers, I sure can't but I can and do do them on the trainer. And doing one leg drills is great for smoothing out your peddling stroke.

The rollers are kind of cool for about 5 minutes then I start seeing red. I have to concentrate so hard to stay on them the seconds fly by like hours. I've tried watching videos or TV but I end up not seeing anything because any distraction has the possibility of causing a crash. 30 minutes is about the maximum time I can spend on them without jumping out of my skin but often, I go nuts after 20 minutes.

The Dyno-lyte rollers offer more inherent resistance than Challengers but less than Hank's Dyno-Myte. When I got the rollers, I had mistakenly ordered the Dyno-Myte. I had heard from a lot of racers that the less resistance, the better for your form. I wrote to Kreitler about it and they confirmed it so I switched to the Dyno-Lyte. Years ago, I tried the non-resistance kind and couldn't stay on them for more than about 30 seconds. When I got the Dyno-Lytes, I got on them and stayed on, right out of the box so there is little doubt that the more resistance, the easier it is to stay upright.

Now, as to counting roller miles as riding miles, Hank?!! I thought I knew you better!

Anonymous's picture
Evan Marks (not verified)
one-legged drills

Two schools of thought here. I'm of the opinion (and I know I'm not alone) that they're the indoor equivalent of Power Cranks - worthless.

Anonymous's picture
shymember (not verified)
one legged drills

"why is that?With one leg drills you have to pedal the entire ""stroke circle"",using all the muscles in the pedal stroke,with-out any help with the other leg.I agree though w/ the power cranks,it looks to be a accident waiting to happen especially if using them on the road..."

Anonymous's picture
Tom Laskey (not verified)
The Prodigal Son Returns?

Before dismissing Power Cranks, check out their site:

http://www.powercranks.com/

Also, I know several racers - one very successful one in particular - who swear by Power Cranks.

As for one leg drills, again, pretty much every coach I've worked with strongly recommends them. I can definitely notice a difference having done them on a regular basis and when I do 20 or 30 minutes worth and then get on the rollers, I can REALLY feel the difference in my stroke.

Anonymous's picture
Hank Schiffman (not verified)
Roller miles

Tom,
If a runner counts treadmill miles as real distance, why shouldn't a cyclist do the same on rollers? The cycle commputer deems these miles as real. What we need is an official NYCC proclamation to codify it. You are just sore that your cycle computer does not record trainer miles. BTW, who cleans up all the rubber debris that is a byproduct of the trainer?

Anonymous's picture
<a href="http://www.OhReallyOreilly.com">Peter O'Reilly</a> (not verified)
classic 'social proof' fallacy

Someone who spends 3/4/5xs what a pair of cranks normally cost is not likely to tell you its bunk. I reckon overtime Power Crank users eventually become more likely to swear at Power Cranks, doing so confidentially and not until after a last-ditch effort of adding Bio-Pace rings to their cranks.

Anonymous's picture
Evan Marks (not verified)
re: feeling the difference

What exactly do you feel, and is it quantifiable? How do you know that the feeling isn't objectively a decrease in power/efficiency that subjectively happens to feel like something positive's going on?

There are no answers to these questions, thus the disagreement.

Anonymous's picture
Tom Laskey (not verified)
Responses

Hank:

Runners count treadmill miles??? Scandalous! I never have. And I don't notice any more rubber debris from my trainer than my rollers.

Peter:

I'm talking about professional racers and professional coaches who use and recommend power cranks and attribute part of their success to using them. Contact me privately, I'll give you their names, you can discuss with them.

Evan:

After the one leg drills, my stroke feels smoother and thus more efficient. They also make me more consciouse about using all the muscles in my legs, including my hip flexors which I never payed attention to before. I have no specific gauge of their effect but I do know that overall, my cycling has improved since I've been doing them and in ways that those who recommend the drills have described as part of the reason for doing them.

Anonymous's picture
<a href="http://www.OhReallyOreilly.com">Peter O'Reilly</a> (not verified)
More of the same

"""Because professional racers and professional coaches who use and recommend power cranks..."" more of the same - social proof at work.

Powercranks.com makes some pretty bold claims, like increasing power by 40%, but no specific elaboration of its details. (For instance, just putting an average cycling Joe on a very intensive and structured 6 month training program using regular cranks would provide the same results.) Also missing are any technical or medical authority's recommendations other than one states that it will increase one's pedaling efficiency.

That said, assuming their claim is true, efficiency does not equate to increased power. Here is an article that claims such and will be of interest to both powercranks and those interested in:

single leg pedaling efficiency

There are plenty of Exercise Physiologists who would disagree, some of them whom race at a master's level like Dr. A. Coggan. This biomechanic topic has been researched quite a bit and from what I've read, PowerCranksTM are not The Next Big ThingTM in cycling.

Show my the science first. At least for me that resonates better than Coach and Athletes' claims."

Anonymous's picture
Tom Laskey (not verified)
Science

"http://powercranks.com/techtalk.html

I don't know anyone who claims Power Cranks are ""The Next Big Thing"" and I certainly don't mean to suggest they are. I was merely responding to the suggestion that they are ""useless."" As I've said, I do know several very experienced cyclists who have trained intesively for many years and who claim they have seen noticable improvement with the addition of Power Cranks to their training routine."

Anonymous's picture
<a href="http://www.OhReallyOreilly.com">Peter O'Reilly</a> (not verified)
separating the wheat from the shaft

"Tom, regarding ""The Next Big Thing"" I'm referring to Frank Day's seemingly specious marketing copy on his website like the link you provided.

The very first sentence of his ""science"" techtalk link is:

PowerCranks improve power to the wheel of a bicycle by both improving pedaling efficiency and increasing muscle mass available to power the bicycle.

As you mentioned before and the link I provided earlier, one can improve pedaling efficiency by doing one leg pedalling drills AND do so with a regular crank. It's worth noting again that improved pedaling efficiency itsef does not increase power output.

If I wanted to increase ""muscle mass available to power the bicycle"" one could simply do so going to the gym.

So how are the cranks, in fact useful?


Muscle mass is a complete misnomer with respect to generating power output on the bike. For instance, I'm the same height, weight, and body fat composition as the average euro pro cyclist (summer season, for me). Having the same muscle mass composition is about where things start and quickly end. The difference is the pros much greater max and sustainable power output is due to their elite level of VO Max/anaerobic capacity and fitness. There's no way I could hold their wheel. In turn, the same is true for Mr Atlas doing the same with mine.

Surely with a 40% increase in my power output (see powercranks.com home page), @ 420 sustainable watts for an hour that would in fact put me the pro ranks. I could give Lance or David Millar a run for their money in the 40K TT. Maybe spending a $1,000 on a new set of cranks isn't such a bad investment afterall. ;-)

Seriously though, closely reading the details at:

http://powercranks.com/techtalk.html

you will see a big disconnect with the technical background information and Frank Day's claims. Case in point is citing of the ""Bicycling Science, The MIT Press"" study and powercrank's cagent remarks which follows.

It's slick copy that fails logically and applying some critical reasoning. Turning the tables, PowerCranks claims have failed to prove anything. Have them get an independent/outside endorsement and you will win over this sceptic. Until then, it's just bunk to me and to the many professional biomechanics, exercise physiologists, sports scientists, etc."

Anonymous's picture
Evan Marks (not verified)
You say potato...

"...I say pseudoscience.

Let's take the one-legged drills out of the context of a trainer session and spend a few weeks doing nothing else. What do you think the end results will be? I really don't know, and though I don't expect a happy ending I'm willing to be proven wrong when I see the science. So far, I haven't seen it.

Similarly, Powercranks' pseudoscience from the article below - were the subjects trained athletes or newbies, how do they measure gross efficiency, are the differing GE values in the two groups statistically significant given such small samples (6 riders in each group, LOL), are there alternate explanations for the *seemingly* improved HR and VO2 (spinning normal cranks vs mashing powercranks, eg) and really, can anyone define ""1-hour submaximal ride"" or is it some artificial lab construct that has no relevance to the real world?

(I'm an Andy Coggan believer too, though half of what he says is waayyyy over my head.)

Your turn.

"

Anonymous's picture
B. Dale (not verified)

The link to the publisher's website is down this morning, so I could not determine how they actually measured GE.

J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Nov;17(4):785-91.

Effects of short-term training using powercranks on cardiovascular fitness and cycling efficiency.

Luttrell MD, Potteiger JA.

Department of Health, Sport and Exercise Science, University of Kansas, Lawrence 66045, USA.

Powercranks use a specially designed clutch to promote independent pedal work by each leg during cycling. We examined the effects of 6 wk of training on cyclists using Powercranks (n=6) or normal cranks (n=6) on maximal oxygen consumption (VO2max) and anaerobic threshold (AT) during a graded exercise test (GXT), and heart rate (HR), oxygen consumption (VO2), respiratory exchange ration (RER), and gross efficiency (GE) during a 1-hour submaximal ride at a constant load. Subjects trained at 70% of VO2max for 1 h.d(-1), 3 d.wk(-1), for 6 weeks. The GXT and 1-hour submaximal ride were performed using normal cranks pretraining and posttraining. The 1-hour submaximal ride was performed at an intensity equal to approximately 69% of pretraining VO2max with VO2, RER, GE, and HR determined at 15-minute intervals during the ride. No differences were observed between or within groups for VO2max or AT during the GXT. The Powercranks group had significantly higher GE values than the normal cranks group (23.6 +/- 1.3% versus 21.3 +/- 1.7%, and 23.9 +/- 1.4% versus 21.0 +/- 1.9% at 45 and 60 min, respectively), and significantly lower HR at 30, 45, and 60 minutes and VO2 at 45 and 60 minutes during the 1-hour submaximal ride posttraining. It appears that 6 weeks of training with Powercranks induced physiological adaptations that reduced energy expenditure during a 1-hour submaximal ride.

Anonymous's picture
rjb (not verified)
training

Just a general comment related to this thread - there's an old school of thought called 'specificity of training', meaning simply, the best way to train for a sport is.....you guessed it, by doing that sport, ie. by riding your regular ol' bike. That's not to say you shouldn't work on technique while on the bike.

Anonymous's picture
Gerta (not verified)
Folks, close your browser windows and go out for a run

:)

Anonymous's picture
rossp (not verified)
he he he

can just imagine Lance using them - up Alp D'Huez with both feet in sync...that would be funny!!

Anonymous's picture
John Z (not verified)
WTFAYTA? (nm)
Anonymous's picture
Fred Steinberg (not verified)
Computrainer does it

Indoor riding is mental anguish. I used rollers for years and ended up using them only to test out drive train changes; you just put the bike on the rollers and ride. Gave them away years ago.

A friend gave me a basic Computrainer which worked with a Nintendo. Eventually spent close to $1000.00 to upgrade everything to the latest & greatest 1500W load generator, cadence sensor, etc, and finally 3D PC graphics.

You put the program up on a big TV monitor via an S-video cable (or composite video which is inferior)from your PC and you download any course or build your own. There's an excellent Spin-Scan display which graphs your spin and points out L/R differences. The 3D courses are realistic mountain/desert scenery. You stand on the climbs, draft. The screen shows HR, Watts, speed and a route profile on the bottom. You can race the pacer, a prior performance or another person via the www.

You really must to dedicate a bike to it as it takes a while to setup. For accurate wattage readings you must warm up the rear tire before each race you lock in load/resistance. The HR function is rudimentary; no zones, etc. I think there's an optional coaching package for that. I use my regular Polar and live without HR on the screen. (the package includes an ear clip HR sensor).

It's a tremendous workout. Must prepare for workouts
like a ride. Two water bottles, GU, the works. Puddles of sweat, towels everywhere.

You really go crazy and buy a special DeLorme Topo version and download you own routes or favorite climbs.

Its a stiff ticket, but the realistic, competitive riding provides motivation and fends off boredom.

If you're going to ride indoors, this is it.

Anonymous's picture
Bob Shay (not verified)
The computrainer...

Thanks for bringing up this solution. A pro racer told me about this setup and let me ride on his for a while. It is really neat and provides very significant resistance. The website I have is http://www.racermateinc.com/.

The computrainer retails for $1,500. Could I get the same resistance with a $300 CycleOps 2 Fluid trainer?

Bob

Anonymous's picture
John Z (not verified)
Buy my electronic trainer... (nm)
Anonymous's picture
Fred Steinberg (not verified)
Basic Computrainer

The computer is optional. The basic setup comes with a handlebar controller that provides some resistance workouts. The load generator and HR ear clip cord connect to it.

But you will probably be paying for the PC software and a serial plug and headphone like wire that connects it to the handlebar controller, and connect to a PC later.

I don't think this is cost effective compared to other variable load competitors.
The payoff in the Computrainer is the competitive stimulation of a race plus the spinscan analysis which requires a PC. The 3D software adds realism.

Anonymous's picture
Fred Steinberg (not verified)
forgot to answer last question...

I don't know how much resistance the Cycle-Ops provides vs. the Computrainer's 1500W generator. Probably more than enough.

You will certainly save money with the Cycle-ops. You could get spin analysis from a Polar 710/720/725 and have wattage readout while riding for 1/2 the cost.

The question is how motivated are you to sit on a trainer looking at a tiny LCD panel and an HRM watch versus a big TV monitor with realistic climbs in sync with the resistance of the course you are riding?

Anonymous's picture
Bob Shay (not verified)
Question about the Computrainer...

A man can dream.

I have been reading the threads on watts and the whiteface mountain race which is on June 17th next year.

Based on my calculations, to win the race (8 miles, 8.4% constant grade) a person of 175lbs would have to create and sustain 400 watts of power at an 85 rpm cadence to average 10 MPH to win the race...(it is painful just thinking about this).

Can the Computrainer be set-up so that I can ride at different watt levels (200, 250, 300, etc) for 60 minutes at a time to simulate the race conditions?

If so, I may have to bite the bullet and get a computrainer.

Thanks,

Bob

Anonymous's picture
Ron Kahn (not verified)
Question on setting up Computrainer

Yes, you can set up the Computrainer to ride any possible way you can think of. As implied by Fred, you can train on the course you want to compete on. Yon can draft on that course, you can pull, stand naturally, spin, ride intervals, jumps and sprints, whatever. Once you learn how to use the machine you will look forward to indoor training. Hard to believe, but true.

Anonymous's picture
B. Dale (not verified)
WTFAYTA?

I think the poster was talking about a powercranks (discussed in this thread last year; above) drill. Start with both feet up and bring them around at the same time. Takes tremendous core strength. Alp d'Huez would be a challenge, to say the least.

Anonymous's picture
John Z (not verified)
Oh, those things... (nm)
Anonymous's picture
Neile (not verified)
My store gets corporate membership rates at NYH&R

"So I take spin class twice a week.

Up early in the morning. Dark room. Loud music. Lot's of sweat. And a young woman screaming ""Faster!"" ""Harder!"", ""Change position!"" ""Up!"", ""Down!""

Works for me.

"

Anonymous's picture
John Z (not verified)

"...screaming ""Faster!"" ""Harder!"", ""Change position!"" ""Up!""...

I do this but I only got 2 people to ride with me last week."

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