Is it cool not to have brakes? Is it a badge of honor? Please let me know.
What's up with the hipsters on track bikes?
Fri, 10/01/2004 - 9:21pm
Sat, 10/02/2004 - 1:33pm
#1
Track Bikes
Give it a try. Don't disparage something because you don't understand it, it doesn't reflect well on a person. Why do people tele-ski when they can alpine? Different skills, different thrills.
And, yes, it is cool not to have brakes. And no, I'm not a hipster?
And Treetop, what's with all the recreational riders on $6,000 bikes? Is it cool to have Record 10 to cruise to Nyack?
Sat, 10/02/2004 - 4:06pm
#2
Bike messenger chic perhaps. I ride a fixed gear pista but have a front brake.
One thing re fixies as city bikes, from what I hear they're ripped off less frequently. Maybe theives can't ride them or you can't deliver food with one or something. Plus there's not much to strip off them and they're easy to fix and build.
Sat, 10/02/2004 - 7:02pm
#3
good thought.
Sat, 10/02/2004 - 3:37pm
#4
$9,000 Serotta for cruising on 9W
There is nothing wrong with going to Nyack on a fancy bike ($$$)wearing fancy pants. If your wife has money. I say, spend it! However, to ride an expensive mountain bike to Nyack is simply the wrong bike, at the wrong time time for the wrong reason.
John the hair guy
Sat, 10/02/2004 - 4:44pm
#5
'Tho it might make for a nice diversion . . . (nm)
Sat, 10/02/2004 - 7:14pm
#6
Hand brakes on fixed gear bikes
As a dentist, a hand brake is one of the better insurance features available for safety. You don't have to use the brake but if you really need it, it is waiting for you. We are talking pride here. That which is reputed to go before a fall. No amount of money will put your face back to where it was before a serious crash; you can hang your hat on it.
To equate freeheel skiing to cycling without a hand brake is absurd. The degree of control on telemark skis is not compromised. In fact, you have more turning options on them vs alpine bindings. And that amounts to more control, not less.
Riding a fixed gear bike does have its virtues. Riding without a hand brake might add something to the experience. But from a safety point of view, just because people do it and do it successfully does not justify the risk to rider and public at large. The biological price is just to great.
Sun, 10/03/2004 - 9:02am
#7
Trek for crusing the ranch.
I say it is fine to ride the mid-price Mountain bike on the ranch, as long as the secret service agrees.
George the smile guy
Mon, 10/04/2004 - 1:15pm
#8
Costly Lunch
>to ride an expensive mountain bike to Nyack is simply the wrong bike, at the wrong time, for the wrong reason.
Plus, you can't find any B.L.T.'s in Nyack, or is that ............Piermont?
Mon, 10/04/2004 - 8:41am
#9
no brakes makes you safer
I found having no brakes can actually make you a safer rider because you have to think much further ahead and be acutely aware of what's happening all around you. It also does wonders for your balance and bike handling skills.
The hipster thing will probably die down soon. The hordes of shaggy-haired youths coming over the Williamsburg bridge on fixies means it is already too mainstream to be truly hip.
Mon, 10/04/2004 - 2:31pm
#10
Let's add some alcohol to the mix
I had a friend in high school who insisted he was a safer driver when he was drunk because he was more careful. Perhaps instead of a searching out bakeries, delis, and diners on our rides, we should be looking for bars, pubs, and breweries. [I’ll admit to doing this in Ireland, but that’s a story for a different thread.]
Mon, 10/04/2004 - 8:57am
#11
Fixed gears aren't just hipster cool (though they are today)
"I have a 1983 Team Fuji. I just recently converted it into a fixed gear
for my ""beater"" bike. I think it's true that there is less to strip on
it and it's not getting me any points with the racing crowd but who cares
if it's good enough to get to the store/park/bar without being flashy.
As far as serious riding is concerned, I will take a freewheel with brakes
over the fixed but it's a nice choice if you have two bikes and you
want different riding expericences.
Fixed gears will go the way of any big trend or fad within the certain circles of cool and it will always be there for the guy that just wants to ride fixed."
Mon, 10/04/2004 - 9:21am
#12
More than a few people think fixies are cool
Some like brakes, some don't:
http://www.fixedgeargallery.com
Mon, 10/04/2004 - 10:55am
#13
"i rode a canondale track bike (with traditional crowned steel fork...low crown profile with no brake hole...they didn't make them that way for long) to nyack enough times to know that you need cojones to speed down state line hill on a fixed bike with no brake. it takes even mo' bigger cojones to do it in a full tuck on miller crit boots...no brakes made for that model.
in either case, you're road kill if a squirrel runs onto the road in front of you. :)
don (who was very lucky)"
Mon, 10/04/2004 - 2:19pm
#14
Skating with no brakes
Are you a skater, Don? I have never ridden a bike without brakes (and don't think I ever will), but I skated for years on speedskates with no brakes. Speedskaters with no brakes usually become proficient at using a T-stop (dragging one skate behind the other) to stop almost as efficiently as using a rear brake on skates. Any skater going down a hill on skates without knowing how to do a T-stop is a moron.
Jay
Mon, 10/04/2004 - 3:13pm
#15
with enough training, you can stop a fixed without brakes as good as you can stop a regular road bike. any inline racer who shows up for a race with a brake on will be laughed off the course (or forced off by someone who doesn't want to fall behind someone who can't properly cross over because they have a brake on).
i used to race inline and ice...then i broke my ankle and needed a plate and four screws to set things. i've been running the past couple years. i might ride once or twice a month. my miller skates have been gathering dust for a few years now. i guess i should put them up on ebay.
:(
don
Mon, 10/04/2004 - 5:53pm
#16
no
"with enough training, you can stop a fixed without brakes as good as you can stop a regular road bike.
No. No you can't. Unless you can also repeal the laws of physics. The front brake supplies the vast majority of the braking force under panic stops. On dry pavement, using solely the front brake, you can regularly brake hard enough to lift the rear wheel off the ground.
Christian ""fixed, con frenos"""
Mon, 10/04/2004 - 9:22pm
#17
skates, brakes and fixies are scary!!!
Worst crash I ever had was on speed skates 2 years ago. Took a nice amount of skin off my right leg. Had wonderful infections on and off for 4 months. Speed skates and downhill is bad news. You get in trouble and there is no way out.
Back to the subject these guys that ride fixed gear with no brakes are usualy pretty slow to begin with so it's not a big deal. The guys that do ride fast with no brakes are just nuts. And no you can't stop as fast. All your weight is tranfered forward. Rear wheel supplies about 25% of your braking power. When I race cars at the track you will completly destroy your front brakes in 3-4 track days. The rear will last all season. Front brakes are 3 times larger. On many corners the rear isn't even on the ground! Even on bikes record and chorus brakes are larger up front then in the rear.
I just recently got a bit of the fixed gear bug. I test rode a Specialized Langster Pro. I found it very unsafe. I love to lay it down in the corners and right away I smashed the pedal right into the ground. Went with a lower model Langster with brakes and a freewheel. Much safer, faster and more fiting to my riding style. Only problem is you have to take then off and flip the wheel when you go to the track.
Tue, 10/05/2004 - 8:10am
#18
"Did someone say ""Langster""?"
I just love mine. It may be admired among Rob's photos of the Shiftless Bums ride.
Sure, the other guys' lovingly built track bikes have more individuality. And for sheer beauty there's no competing with the Pista. But the Langster is a trusty work horse, a proletarian's dream at a modest price.
Habitat was getting a big shipment in August.
Tue, 10/05/2004 - 8:46am
#19
Ahem.
And for sheer beauty there's no competing with the Pista.
It's so hard to detect irony on a message board, so in case you weren't kidding...
Nagasawa: http://www.businesscycles.com/nagasawa.htm
Sachs: http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2004/c/greene.htm
Vanilla: http://www.vanillabicycles.com/bikes/track/bike_a/lrg/1.jpg
Tue, 10/05/2004 - 9:28am
#20
beauty vs the eye of the beholder
My all-time favorite:
http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/neilmangelsdorf.htm
(Click on the cyclingnews.com link for the full story)
Second place:
http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/katybeanlarson.htm
Tue, 10/05/2004 - 10:38am
#21
Beauty = high maintenance
"Those are indeed seductive machines. I wouldn't let them out of my sight for one minute. But beauty comes at a price.
I grimaced the first time my Langster got scratched--a brutal scrape down the left fork, by some hulking beater parked outside the Film Forum. But not only did my bike survive, it was liberated from the tyranny of appearance. I can now ride and lock it with abandon.
Of course the crucial thing is not looks but how the bike makes you feel, and how much time you spend with it. In short, the quality of the ""relationship.""
"
Tue, 10/05/2004 - 3:48pm
#24
Beauty & the Pista
"Carol Wood wrote: ""And for sheer beauty there's no competing with the Pista.""
Some Pistas are indeed quite beautiful. Here's one: http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/benotto/Beno_2700.htm."
Tue, 10/05/2004 - 4:06pm
#25
Fixed-gear riding on the road without brakes
"Nathan wrote:
""Back to the subject these guys that ride fixed gear with no brakes are usualy pretty slow to begin with so it's not a big deal. The guys that do ride fast with no brakes are just nuts.""
Thanks for a good laugh!"
Wed, 10/06/2004 - 10:42am
#26
yes
your back wheel won't lift if you shift your weight back. an experienced fixed bike rider can stop a lot faster than most people can imagine. having brakes doesn't guarantee you'll stop faster than a fixed rider...nor does it guarantee you'll maneuver or otherwise outperform a fixed rider. i think you're underestimating the skill level of experienced track bike riders.
:)
don
Wed, 10/06/2004 - 11:58am
#27
"With all due respect, you're wrong. And continuing to spout this type of ignorance does a disservice to other cyclists, who need to learn how to effectively use their brakes (riding fixed or not).
In short, front brakes stop much faster than rear brakes, regardless of type. And getting your ass 12"" behind the seat makes no meaningful difference to the stopping distance, whatsoever.
You could do a quick back of the envelope calculation which would tell you that only a front brake will give you approximately 0.6g deceleration (before skidding or going ass-over-teakettle), whereas a rear brake will give less than half that deceleration (before skidding). All this assumes clean pavement (the specific numbers, not the theory).
But, I'll tell you what, rather than use math, physics, engineering (my path), or just repeating nonsensical bike lore (yours), let's just set up a test. It can also serve as a useful lesson to other cyclists that the front brake is really the only one that matters (except in cases where the surface is slippery or the front brake cable snaps).
We can do it at the next club meeting. You choose any cyclist you want. I'll pick me.
We can set up a course whereby both riders can ride up to a steady 20mph (as verified by the max speed on our computers), and then brake as soon as passing a specific marker. And we'll measure respective stopping distances.
Alternately, we can ride side by side at identical speeds and a person approximately 50 meters in front of us will give a sign to begin braking.
Your lieutenant will stop using only a rear brake of his choosing (preferably a fixed gear, since that'll be cooler). I'll stop using solely my front brake. Your rider may use any two wheeled bicycle of his choosing. I'll ride a standard road bike.
I'll bet any amount up to $10,000 that I'll beat your rider. I am completely serious.
This is gonna keep me in bike parts for years!
- Christian
PS: Hal, can we arrange this for the next club meeting? Vanderbilt Avenue should be long enough.
PS2: For those of you considering this bet, the following might be of interest (though it only discusses the efficacy of using 50/50 two brakes vs. solely the front brake, but 0/100 rear is the trivial case):
http://home.earthlink.net/~mallow4/bicycling/bicycle_braking.pdf"
Wed, 10/06/2004 - 3:50pm
#28
(yawn)
Wed, 10/06/2004 - 5:09pm
#29
If I ran the zoo , err.. club,
I'd set it up for Sunday morning at the top of Ash St. in Piermont. Winner can spend the stake on new brake blocks at Piermont Bike. Loser gets burial-at-sea, compliments of the club.
Wed, 10/06/2004 - 7:45pm
#32
Campy vs Shimano
Tubies vs clinchers, brakes vs no brakes, these are all religious issues, no amount of talk is going to change anyone's mind. The odds are poor, much like lions vs (groan) Christians.
Fuggedaboudit.
Thu, 10/07/2004 - 6:04am
#33
No Brake
I was sitting in front of my apartment building one afternoon and a guy on a track bike, no brakes, comes flying down the street. He was doing at least 20-25 mph. The light quickly turned from green to red and he stopped quicker than I ever could imagine. I was surprised he didn't blow his rear tire, because he applied so much force against his crank arms to stop, he skidded 20 feet to a halt. It was an amazing site to see.
Wed, 10/06/2004 - 12:33pm
#34
Talent and technique help
Technique! Very important for stopping. Most track riders have awesome all-around technique – track stands, in-riding, taking and giving shoulders and elbows and staying upright, locking handlebars, etc.
But stopping? I was with a bunch of trackies coming back from FB Field in Brooklyn. We were waiting at a stop sign when one of the trackies, who was off the back, sprinted at us full-tilt. What was he doing? Right at us, 25 mph, rocking like a mad sprinter!! About 20 feet away, he comes out of his left clip, drags his bike around like a bull-fighter’s cape and stops about 3 feet from us, just as he brings his right leg over the bike. Total control! Showing off, but he had total control. No brake!
How about bunny-hopping a fix, locking your feet to stop the rear wheel and coming down into a skid? And if you balance your ride while swerving to the side, you can stop in precious little distance.
Sooo, I think the talent of the rider really helps against the forces of physics.
Wed, 10/06/2004 - 2:18pm
#35
there's no arguing with _that_ anecdote!
Sooo, I think the talent of the rider really helps against the forces of physics.
Ok. If, in the face of abundant evidence to the contrary, you choose to believe that a rider using solely a rear brake can outbrake a rider using a front brake, you're welcome to believe it.
Did you take a bridge back to the City from Floyd Bennett field? Amazingly, that very bridge belongs to me, and is currently for sale. Would you like to buy it?
Mad skillz,
- Christian
Wed, 10/06/2004 - 3:53pm
#36
ahhh...locking the rear wheel...it's another reason i always had wide slicks on my track bike.
:)
don
Wed, 10/06/2004 - 7:43pm
#37
Stop the bike or the posters?
Sooo, I think the talent of the rider really helps against the forces of physics.
That's what I said!
Ok. If, in the face of abundant evidence to the contrary, you choose to believe that a rider using solely a rear brake can outbrake a rider using a front brake, you're welcome to believe it.
That's not what I said. I just related anecdote. In fact, this is a stop in less than 20 feet from semi-sprint speed ... wiht no brake.
Did you take a bridge back to the City from Floyd Bennett field? Amazingly, that very bridge belongs to me, and is currently for sale. Would you like to buy it?
Mad skillz,
- Christian
Well, no, I live in Brooklyn. Just a story, not involving you. In fact, I tend to agree with your posts (that hurt ;-) And if you think handling skills do not affect stopping in real time - reaction time, weight distribution, strength, bike control, general athletic ability, I'd I'd I'd s sssay ... I can't come up with a witicism to match your bridge sale. :-) So, I'd say reconsider!
Sad millz
Wed, 10/06/2004 - 8:19pm
#38
subject is required because I have BOLD tags...
And if you think handling skills do not affect stopping in real time - reaction time, weight distribution, strength, bike control, general athletic ability, I'd I'd I'd s sssay ... I can't come up with a witicism to match your bridge sale. :-) So, I'd say reconsider!
Of course I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that given two reasonably skilled riders, one with a front brake, one without, there will be no contest whatsoever in who can stop fastest.
Now, take Marty Nothstein on a fixie vs. someone who's never done a panic stop on a gearie, and maybe you've got a fair fight, but that wasn't really the point.
The point is, it's unadvisable to remotely suggest that newbie fixie riders should go out and ride brakeless. Because all things being equal, you can stop in about half the distance with a front brake than without it.
- Christian
Wed, 10/06/2004 - 8:41pm
#39
that's just silly...newbies have enough common sense to know they have to learn how to stop before they head down 5th avenue on a fixed bike. :)
Christian wrote:
The point is, it's unadvisable to remotely suggest that newbie fixie riders should go out and ride brakeless.
Thu, 10/07/2004 - 5:39am
#40
Newbies and common sense
Don,
Not so sure about that. Just go into the park each weekend and you'll see a newbie skater on the ground bleeding being loaded into an ambulance because they were foolish enough to go down one of the hills without knowing how to use their brake.
Jay
Thu, 10/07/2004 - 7:15am
#41
recreation skaters are dodo's. i was referring to fixed bike riders. :)
Thu, 10/07/2004 - 12:45pm
#42
would that it were so!
Hang out on the Brooklyn side of the Williamsburg Bridge bike ramp around 6pm. You'll see a few brakeless fixie riders who aren't too good with the slowing, never mind the stopping. (You'll see some very capable fixed gear riders, too, some with brakes, some without.)
Thu, 10/07/2004 - 5:41pm
#43
brakes are no substitute for competence ;)
