I'm covered with embarrassment at not knowing your name, but...
You are oriental and yesterday wore a purple jersey with a water pack on your back. You loaned Tom Hayes (grey beard) a tube for the repair on Tweed. He wants to repay you. Alas, he doesn't know your name, either.
Please identify yourself in an e-note so I can broker this.
You loaned someone a tube yesterday; he wants to repay you.
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 11:34am
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 11:43am
#1
Oriental?
Sorry, but that is not PC anymore - Asian is aptly correct.
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 12:17pm
#2
Well then, how about Mongoloid?
"Oriental is correct. To describe him as ""Asian"" is less helpful and less pyhsically descriptive which is obviously Richard's intention. For an anon to respond otherwise is PT (Patronizing Troll)."
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 12:39pm
#3
clarification
From Dictionary.com
ori·ental· adj.
Usage Note: Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Orientalmeaning “eastern”is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 1:09pm
#4
and your point (of clarification) is?
"
Usage Note: Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people.
So if one is from India, Sri Lanka, Armenia or Moldova they now strongly prefer to be called Asians? (More importantly, is Richard typing Asian anymore helpful in identifying the good samaritan?)
The usual objection to Orientalmeaning “eastern”is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern.
How about Asia minor or Turkey? Oh wait they want to join the European Union. ;-)
The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs.
Umm, exotic?!? This is afterall a New York centric message board.
At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.
The esteemed Daisetz Teitaro (""DT"") Suzuki, former Columbia prof. of your alma-mater (?), published many books using the word Oriental. Blanket statements, in defining words no less, are not without their trappings . That is something Suzuki was very mindful of in his teachings."
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 1:21pm
#5
Because it's offsensive to some of us
Peter:
Regardless of how PC or not PC it is, I would rather be called by my name,(not some other guy who also happens to be Asian), If you forget my name, I’d rather you call me the really strong Asian guy on the Fisher or Bianchi (:-). As Asians membership increase in the club, even that might not be descriptive enough in the future. Unless the club decides there should be a limit to the number of Asians who can join, then that's a whole another problem.
You can still call your rugs or furniture Orientals if you like.
Chuck
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 2:17pm
#6
???
"As Asians membership increase in the club, even that might not be descriptive enough in the future.
At what membership # is it enough? Maybe, just maybe, that time has come, as evident by this thread. Perhaps Richard should have written ""the man with Oriental features""?!? Would that meet with your approval?
To be offended by Richard's usage, is more like a hang-up than offense to claim foul as such word was used in this specific context.
I haven't found such offensiveness with my Asian friends, coworkers, my wife or her family or when folks refer to such with our progeny.
Chuck, your'e free to disagree with me. To me the use of the word ""Oriental"" in his post is entirely appropriate. Again, to substitute the word ""Asian"" would be less descriptive and in turn less helpful. The whole point of his post was to identify the person."
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 3:09pm
#7
excuse me
"I actually did not find Richard's usage offensive, because I know him and his intentions. I posted the clarification as just that, in an attempt to explain why some Asians (jk in particular, is either Asian or like you, are close to Asians) might be offended by it. The definition I posted was from a dictionary website, for all I know a European Caucasoid (is this a word?) wrote it. Therefore I don’t feel a need a to defended it.
My intention was not to offend you or your family, you can use whatever word you like. As with most things, the intention behind the action is more important than the action itself. Whatever word(s) you use, I’m sure you use it with love and affection.
>At what membership # is it enough? Maybe, just maybe, that time has come, as evident by this thread.
I’m sensing quite a bit of anger and bad vibe here, and I’m not sure where that’s coming from. Obviously this is a touchy subject for you also.
I’ve always enjoyed the few times I’ve ridden with you or Richard, and I hope you've enjoyed my company also.
And the ""Tube""–I’m not sure, I think the guy’s name is John, if he wears glasses and rides a black bike? Then again, Just ""Oriental "" is not enough for me to go on.
Charles Lam
There’s a joke Asians (some) use when we use the word ""Oriental"", we follow it with ""didn’t mean to offend myself"" ( ;-)
"
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 3:43pm
#8
meeting of the minds
"Chuck, ""what membership #"" was in response to the italized statement of your which I still don't comprehend (maybe it's just me; not really important at this point).
Until your last message it still wasn't clear (to me at least) if you were offended by Richard specifically or something more. More so given the 3 of us are not strangers, either.
Yes, I enjoy both of your company. Usually Richard is the outspoken one. And yes, it's a slow day at the office for me. Likewise for this msg brd (How about that ENY ;-). No anger, bad vibe or offense taken here - rather just a spirited debate (and a bit unclear before if its scope was expanding).
Peter
P.S. As for bad-humored jokes... What do you call an Asian after being spun around? [oh, nevermind]"
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 3:51pm
#9
um...a republican?
(running for cover)
peter wrote:
> P.S. As for bad-humored jokes... What do you call an
> Asian after being spun around? [oh, nevermind]
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 1:09pm
#10
Chuckle of Irony
"All serious points appreciated, had to find some irony in this:
""from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as . . . the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs.""
This being REALLY early, right? Europeans would never have seen such within their 'cosm' in the memorable past. Okay. Back to work."
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 1:23pm
#11
Mandarin??
???Hmmmmmmmmm??
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 2:23pm
#12
Repaying a debt
Unfortunately my effort to find out the name of the rider who was kind enough to lend me a tube on Sunday's ride got lost in the controversy regarding use of the word Oriental. So I am writing to reaffirm my desire to identify that person so I can repay him for his generosity.
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 4:31pm
#13
You're welcome
No problem Tom, it was not a big deal, I had two spare tubes on me. I do recommend you look into getting another pump, the one you had was not working too well.
Having ridden with Richard on several occasions and from reading his past postings on this bulletin board, I believe I know him well enough to recognize that he did not use the word oriental in a derogatory manner. To me this is a non-issue; either word is fine when used in a descriptive context of a person.
John
Sun, 09/26/2004 - 4:48am
#14
The key word is ...
The key word in Richard's posting is not oriental, but THANK YOU.
Unfortunately, that word has gone somewhat out of style, too. Tom, Rich, and most cyclists are among a small subset of society that still chooses to offer help to those who actually need help or even look like they might need it, and to thank those who help them.
I don't think that the term oriental has a history of being used in a derogatory sense by anyone, and that is certainly not the case here.
Bravo to the rider who lent the tube, and bravo to those who are actively seeking to return the favor. Even if you don't find each other, it wall all be ok in the end. The reality is that he or she lent you a tube, and you will lend one to someone else, and ultimately the original lender will get a tube the same way in the future....because that is the way that cyclists are.
Gary Katz
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 3:40pm
#15
He who is due a tube is known and, I think, unoffended.I hope so
"First things first: of course, you'll all want to know and be pleased to know the Asian-Oriental man for whom we were searching has gotten in touch with us. He didn't take exception to my description. Maybe out of politeness; maybe because it's not an issue.
It took me about a day to decide I couldn't line up behind the descriptive term ""African American,"" and so I use the word ""black"" where you use ""African-American."" (Consider this: Teresa Heinz Kerry is African-American.)
In Chinese Communist tradition, I will now subject myself to forced self-criticism: my REAL mistake was in characterizing the rider by any ethnic/demographic/national name at all. It was wholly unnecessary: I mean, he knew who he was without my attaching a description of him.
Now, in remorse for having offended those of you whom I have, I'm going to subject myself to listening to Turandot, followed by Madame Butterfly, and followed by The Pearl Fishers, and read ""The Good Earth"" by Pearl Buck. Or would ""Anna and the King of Siam"" > ""The King and I"" suffice?
I trust you who were effronted feel proper remorse for Adm. Dewey having established an illegal blockade of Manila in the service of forcing open commerce with the east.
All this comes on the day the Times pictured on its obit page a man who is, or at least was, the owner of a pizzeria in Virginia--not that the Times remarked upon it. (Now go look at page and see why he enters this recitation.)
And to bring this back to cycling--this really should be stripped from the message board--I'll just mention the Tour of Langkawi."
Mon, 09/20/2004 - 8:04pm
#16
And, Oh I was hoping it would be ...
Victor Chan :-)
Tue, 09/21/2004 - 3:22pm
#17
Aw Jeez Richard . . .
"I'm disappointed in you. Turandot? Madame Butterfly?
If you had so much as glanced at Edward Said's (err, umm) ""Ori*****ism"", you would know that these pathetic works exist only to satisfy a Western craving for a Western-imagined exoticism unrelated to any authentic non-eurocentric cultural experience.
Rather than so debase yourself, you might want to renew your acquaintance with ""The Mikado"", in which two Englishmen articulate a withering critique of their OWN society through a self-consciously transparent portrayal of an imaginary and pseudomysterious non-West. Lotsa catchy tunes too.
Well, off to market. Fortunately, I've got a little list.
Peter
"
Tue, 09/21/2004 - 5:33pm
#18
I'm bringing this thread back to some club relevance right here.
"At the outset of rides I lead, I urge we get to know one another in some respect and learn something about one another beyond cycling in the course of the day.
If you will stop talking frame materials, cog sizes, bike weights, shop mechanics, bike fit, diet, et al. to your fellow club members, you will be astonished, absolutely astonished by the breadth of interests and exceptional level of accomplishment of many in our club. I am.
Today it's Peter Storey (whose riff on the title of the late, and, to my political way of thinking, very great Edward Said's book has me smiling long after reading his post).
And this, in a note to me appropos this thread, from Tom Laskey: ""All of the works you listed were written by
Europeans or Americans, none by Asian/Orientals. You could subject yourself to the music of Tan Dun, Bright Sheng, Toru Takemitsu or Isang Yun but even these Asian gentleman take a Western approach to composition.""
Getting back to Peter's frame of penance,(not Penzance, Peter), all I ask is the punishment fit the crime.
As for G & S, I marvel at, and love, their having been spectacularly productive as a team long after they stopped talking to one another! Now THAT'S my kind of relationship.
Again, guys and gals, I implore you: you MUST get to know your fellow club members. What wealth we have in our membership. Hell, I've even found wonderfully interesting, articulate, and companionable Republicans!
Oops. Uh oh. I think I've just sunk this thread backwards...."
