Does anyone know anything about the Windsor Kennet road bike? My bike was lost/stolen recently and I'm on a tight budget -- saw this bike and it looked like a good deal?
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/kennet.htm
Plus I read the following review but nobody seems to have heard of the bike/manufacturer so I'm skeptical! Any help/insight would be appreciated!
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=3926
Melanie
(Also, since I'm racing in two weeks I need to purchase asap so unfortunately I can't wait that long for deals to appear on Ebay etc.)
Windsor Kennet Road Bike
Mon, 04/12/2004 - 2:37pm
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 4:57am
#1
"Another ""good"" deal..."
"""nobody seems to have heard of the bike/manufacturer so I'm skeptical!""
Windsor was originally a mid-quality Mexican bike maker. Windsor decals were slapped on Eddy Merckx's custom Colnago just before he set the hour record in Mexico City. Windsor then ran ads touting their bikes as ""The world record holder for the hour.""
Today the Windsor name (like Motobecane and others) has been bought by interests not related to the original company in any way. It is a cheap Southeast Asia frame with name brand components. You pays yer money and you takes yer chances. I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole.
""Chainwheel"""
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 7:22am
#2
Strong words! Any thoughts on the Scattante 650?
"Thanks ""Chainwheel"" -- I was getting really excited by the World Record Holder comments....until you said you wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole! My bike was stolen/""lost"" by UPS and I'm racing in two weeks so I'm desperately trying to snag a good deal on a bike and the Windsor had the Ultegra components/Ritchey wheels...any thoughts on the Scattante 650 (check www.supergo.com)?"
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 11:05am
#3
Caveat Emptor
"""any thoughts on the Scattante 650?""
Scattante is the Supergo house brand. It has an Italian sounding name, but was made in Asia. People buy them and ride them. I wouldn't.
You really need to take a deep breath. I can tell that you're anxious to get a bike in a hurry and at a good price. That can result in bad decisions.
I would be very hesitant to buy a bike without riding it. Also be aware that these bikes will require a fair amount of adjusting when received. It's doubtful they get the amount of preparation you would expect at a good bike shop (e.g., grease added to hubs, wheels tensioned and stress relieved, derailleurs adjusted, etc.). And perhaps most importantly, you will have to work out fit issues yourself. What if the steer tube was cut so short that you can't get the bars as high as you want? What if the stem is too long? These are all issues that a good bike shop will help you with.
""Chainwheel"""
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 12:04pm
#4
What's the fuss?
"What's with the negative slant? Have you even ridden a Scattante bike? I haven't, but have seen one up close in person. The workmanship is quite good. Have you ridden a bike or bike parts manufactured in the far east? Shimano aside, chances are most likely you have and quite possibly do not know it.
Here's a myth-busting, telling article about the bike biz Although the article is almost a couple years old, what is written rings even more true now. For instance, where do you think most carbon crank production is occuring? Answer: Taiwan. Producing a safe/reliable crank is one of the, if not the most challenging and expensive bike part fabrication (inferring from the article)
My main ride contains parts mostly from Asia. It's just my opinion, but I think Asia is producing parts on the same level, if not better than found stateside or in Europe.
Unlike USA & Europe, Asian bike manufacturers are not big into branding (w/ the exception of Giant and Shimano). That's fine with me - I don;t need to see Lance, Jan or Cippo riding my bike. For me I can take pass on the ""social proof"" premium.
With all that I didn't have the opportunity to test ride it before purchasing. I don't see how this is a big deal if one knows what it is they want. How many bikes shops stock Merlins, Sevens and Colnagos in various sizes and are ready to be test ridden?
The bike she is looking for is a budget bike. If she doesn't like it, she can always send it back. Can't do that with a bike shop without losing a deposit.
I don't know any NYC bike shop that will add grease to hubs, stress relieve spokes, etc. - especially so without asking first. If you get one to do so without additional charge - well then great (please tell me) - but not likely. With NYC rents, shops make their profits on service not bike sales. Besides for all the money she may potentially save shopping through the mail, spending a $100 - $150 on a ""bike overhaul"" is of little consequence to the bottom line.
Point is, for her price point, I don't see how test riding and bike prep work is an issue. I have no problem with one supporting a bike shop. On the other hand, incurring some great penalty or trepidation by foregoing shopping at one, carte blanche, I find to be a bit daft.
On the other hand, granted, given that she has a race in two weeks, I would be shopping locally at a bike shop. Having immediate availability and (someone else's) time to service a bike is a big consideration. I'd forego mail order for that reason alone.
"
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 1:31pm
#5
Scattante
"""What's with the negative slant?""
I have a few reservations about mail order bikes in general, and especially for ""no-name"" bikes sold through high volume retailers.
First, it may not be clear to everyone that they're buying a ""no-name"" bike. Some mail order houses are clearly trying to mislead people by using familiar names like Motobecane. Why use an Italian sounding name like Scattante to sell a Chinese bike?
Secondly, I don't think it's a great idea to buy a bike without trying it out. The hassle and expense of returning a mail order bike may cause some folks to keep a bike that wasn't really all they hoped for.
Finally, unless the buyer is experienced in setting up a bike, they may end up with a poor fit, poor shifting, etc. Sure, you can go to a bike shop to resolve some of those problems, but I'd be a little embarrassed to wheel a Scattante into a bike shop.
I have nothing against Asian bikes per se. I've owned Japanese bikes in the past, and some of them were great. But those were bought in a bike shop, and test ridden before making the purchase.
As I said before, people do buy Scattante's and ride them. I just have a hard time recommending that someone go that route, especially when they're under the gun time wise.
""Chainwheel""
p.s. I hear Scattante has an interesting meaning in Greek."
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 2:26pm
#6
"We're talking about two things here: Mail order in general and the Windsor bike from Bikesdirect.
Re: mailorder, I think there's a place for it, but factor in the shipping and any extra work that may need to go in, plus the risk that it won't satisfy you and you'll need to buy another bike to race with. I once bought an entry-level road bike from Performance. It was delayed in shipping and when it arrived, I found out that they had installed a ""too narrow"" BB and the chainring had gashed the chainstay (other than that, it seemed like a sweet bike at a nice price.) I decided to return it (they covered shipping both ways,) but if you factor in the time I spent dealing with it, going local might have been cheaper.
If you're gonna race in 2 weeks and you're up for spending $1000, you have other options.
Re the Windsor, don't take BikeDirect's MSRP and purported savings seriously. It may or may not be a ""deal."" Compare what a similar bike (materials, components) costs and compare against that."
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 2:31pm
#7
branding
"""Unlike USA & Europe, Asian bike manufacturers are not big into branding ""
Peter, I'm Chinese. I think I have an insider's view.
Asian bike makers ARE into branding as much as European or Americans. The only reason there're no big name frame maker besides Giant is because the rest are NOT into producing CONSISTENTLY good frames.
Yes, they CAN produce good frames and parts just like here. But the lack of consistency is partly by design. Those are the manufacturers who's more insterested in making a quick buck than making good products. So, unless they're under contract to produce parts/frames to meet certain standard (for sale in the US under a brand name, for example), they're just as happy to make craps to push to any fool.
So, you're right. Not all Chinese made bikes are junk. But unfortunately, there're more junks than high quality good coming out of China because of that mentality. I'd suggest sticking only to the brands that's already well-established.
""I don;t need to see Lance, Jan or Cippo riding my bike.""
Maybe not the big names. But if their bikes are good enough to race on the same level as TREK and Cannondale, they would have put them under some smaller name racers to show it off. Has Scattante sponsored any local level racers?"
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 3:29pm
#8
reasoning, perception and reality
"Using your logic (and allow me to be facetious for a moment)...Does Seven make a bad bike? I don't know of any team that races on them? How about baseball. Nike ""makes"" baseball equipment (along with every other possible piece of sports equipment). Does that mean their product is superior? It must not be that good as all I see in Japan is the players using Mizuno equipement.
As for being their bikes not being good enough to race on - well they are - in Asia, naturally. How many pro Asians do you see racing in Europe? Not many.
Branding: In addition to the bicycle insider article I cited, here is a non-bike related periodical's contention about the lack of branding by Asian bicycle manufacturers:
Bicycle makers
Both these references contend that Asia countries like Taiwan are making high end bicycles and bike parts. (And yes, enough so some well-known Italian bike frame manufacturers subcontract out to Asia.)
If that's not enough, here's a book devoted to the subject of Asian branding, or lack thereof, in general and not limited to bicycles: Branding in Asia book
The inside cover states (from Amazon): ""...While many Western companies have successfully developed international brands, Asian companies have been slow to follow suit....""
I work in marketing, have lived and ridden bicycles in Asia and naturally here. Those other sources confirm my personal experience and perceptions.
"
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 6:24pm
#9
Sorry, link not accessible
"""Both these references contend that Asia countries like Taiwan are making high end bicycles and bike parts. ""
You have totally missed my point. The point was not whether Asia makes high quality parts. It's there are MANY MORE Asia manufacturers make crappy parts for sale around the world under god-knows-what brand. So, unless you know the particular brand is of high quality, your chance of hitting a good one by accident is quite slim! That, was the original question starting this thread.
The original poster was asking for endorsement of happy user(s) of an unknown (to her) brand. She got none so far. Does that make this particular bike bad? Not absolutely neccessary. But her chance of hitting a good one is not very high, in my opinion. Are you, on the other hand, of the opinion that her chance of ended up with a nice Asian-made racing bike is very high?
As for asian racers, I happen to know one who was a retired pro. He contend the ""sponsor bikes (not sure the English brand name)"" break often."
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 7:23am
#10
representative samples
"1. Maybe the reason the original poster couldn't get an endorsement for a Windsor (nor did she get a single negative comment from anyone who actually owned one) is that the majority of people who post to this Board wouldn't consider riding anything other than a ""brand name"" bike. Her question should have been posted to a forum with a larger, more diverse readership.
2. Regarding racing on Asian made bikes -- I have little experience with them, but have done more than a fair share of racing and riding in Latin America. There, many riders are using Mexican made frames. No one I've spoken with has a problem with them. I can't imagine that these Mexican frames are of better quality than Asian frames.
Paying more for a Seven or a Trek doesn't guaranty a better frame. It just means you spent more.
el jefe"
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 8:58am
#11
There are other choices
"""Paying more for a Seven or a Trek doesn't guaranty a better frame. It just means you spent more.""
The big difference with a name-brand bike is that you can see it and ride it before buying. Knowing how a bike fits and handles is far more important than whether it has Ultegra or 105 components.
You present the choice as being between Seven and Trek on the one hand, and Windsor and Scattante on the other. There are many other alternatives between those extremes.
Yes, you'll pay more at a bike shop, but you also get more (advice, complete assembly & setup, at least a cursory fitting, saddle/stem swap if needed, free tune-up, etc.). And there are deals available at shops. Even if you pay $200-300 more for a name-brand bike, that's not really a lot over the life of the bike. And if problems develop, you don't have to ship the bike across the country at your own expense.
""Chainwheel"""
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 8:40am
#12
Well understood
"Are you referring to the Economist link being inaccessible? If so, then a subscription is needed.
I'd email you the address, but given your anon. status, that's not possible.
If you read the originally cited slowtwitch article, I do not see how you could still believe such fallacious comments....
the bike biz
An anonomous post of ""I happen to know..."" is toothless. Your point about producing junk is irrelevant to the discussion. The woman is inquiring about a road bike, not an inexpensive utility/commuter/""shopping"" bike.
While I know nothing about Windsor bikes, I personally ride a ""nice Asian-made racing bike"" for quite a few years now. (This includes the frame, fork, stem, and other components - all but the rims & spokes, some nuts n bolts.) I suspect many more reading this message do so too and likely do not know it.
"
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 9:28am
#13
Thanks....although the woman is still confused!
"Thanks Peter, Chainwheel, El Jefe, Dirtride, Isaac for all the information....although - no offense! - but I'm still confused whether to go for the brandless Asian-made Windsor or fork out a few extra (hundred) dollars at a local bike shop. Although I'm not a total slug on the bike, I guess I question whether I could even tell the difference between Mexican v's Asian v's US frames or Dura Ace v's Ultegra or aluminum v's titanium...or whatever it is! (However my bank account can definitely tell the difference)
...anyway, I'll figure it out but just wanted to chime in and say thanks for all of your words.
Hey, if I DO buy the Asian Windsor it could always be a good excuse for poor race performance, no? :) On a serious note though, if I do buy ""her"" I'll post an update....maybe even let you guys take her for a spin if you're really curious and then you can banter back and forth again about what you think?! Thanks again!
Mel"
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 9:58am
#14
sorry for the confusion
Didn't mean for the original discussion to get sidetracked with a spirited sub-threaded discussion on where bikes/bike parts are made. I would not get hung up on whether its an American, Asian or a (still Mexican?) Windsor bike.
There's still quite a bit of good advice here like consider buying used or doing your shopping at a bike shop. That's what I would consider doing given your short timeframe. Others suggest buying through the mail - nothing wrong with that, I suppose other than a possible extra element of risk (shipping, delivery, setup, etc).
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 12:03pm
#15
....yes, definitely good advice
Yes, definitely lots of good advice mixed in with the spirited discussion and I am pursuing lots of different options - online, local shops, used bikes etc.. I just haven't quite decided which is the best option!
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 10:38am
#16
Best of luck Melanie!
Please tell us more about your racing. What kind of racing are you doing?
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 12:11pm
#17
...don't hold it against me...
...but I'm one of those aero-bars (but not on group rides!) triathlete individuals! I'm supposed to do a half-ironman in St. Croix...sometimes I'm competitive but this race was really to help prepare me for Placid in July which will be my first ironman...
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 2:16pm
#18
Something new, something old, ...
Something BORROWED!
With only 2 weeks, how about trying to either rent one, or beg/borrow one from buddies that are about the same size as you for the race instead?
That way, you don't need to be in such a big hurry to commit a grand for something sight unseen.
I personally haven't bought used bikes from e-Bay myself. My riding buddy did it twice. Both times the bike came a little different from what he expected. One was usable after a bit of work, the other one not, which he re-sold with a loss. Both were indeed inexpensive on paper. But when you factoring the money wasted on the one that's has to be re-sold, the total amount spend isn't all that cheap after all.
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 3:00pm
#19
Toga is the best!
"..and Will from Toga has SOOOOOO kindly offered to lend me one for St. Croix! So I'm no longer in such a rush...but I have three Kona-qualifier races lined up in May/June so I'm still eager to get ""my"" wheels. (But I agree re. Ebay - especially with my limited knowledge! - I'm sure I could buy a real doozy of a bike and think I had snared an incredible bargain!)"
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 12:02pm
#20
Message board at it’s best
>but I'm still confused whether to go for the brandless Asian-made Windsor or fork out a few extra (hundred) dollars at a local bike shop.
Although most of this boards posters are of similar demographics. You still get a good range of differing opinions and perspectives. The final decision still comes down to what you want and need.
It’s hard to take a step down when you’re getting a new bike, what was the other one like. Did UPS compensate you for the full value of the bike? How much insurance did you purchase if any? How competitive are you? If it’s a one day race- rent or borrow one for the short term.
The time pressure of the purchase also adds to the mix. Something that you can get tomorrow might not suit you a month from now. A new or used road bike carries a substantial price tag. It’s easier to resell a Cannondale or Bianchi than a Scattante.
Living in a NYC apartment, I’ve learned not to buy something because it’s cheap, but cheap doesn’t always mean lesser quality. All this might be too much info but it still comes down to what your preferences are and how much you want to spend.
My next purchase will be an American brand name that’s made in Taiwan with Campy (if it’s still Italian) groupo. So I can race it in Mexico City!
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 12:46pm
#21
Bravo!
"""My next purchase will be an American brand name that’s made in Taiwan with Campy (if it’s still Italian) groupo. So I can race it in Mexico City! ""
Thank you for illustrating my point more clearly than I myself can. Although not my own, I've more than once riden my friend's Giant, a well-known brand (American or Taiwan?) that's been around and demonstrated the consistent quality of their products. It clearly (proudly?) shows its Asian origin and the company stands behind their products all these years. There maybe other equally well-made bikes from Asia under other well-estalished US or European brands that I don't know of. [Edit: Now that Carol reminded me, I did own a Fuji from Asia and were happy with it] I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one (again) if it suits my need.
On the other hand, is Kennet, or for that matter, Bikedirect a proven brand? Will Windsor be around in a few years if any warranty issue came up with their Kennet? I know nothing of Kennet as a brand. But as to Bikedirect, I too, wonder why a Chinese made bike choose an Italian sounding name in the first place. And with their elusiveness in their business connection and their product origin, that sure is NOT an indication they're proud of their product. One can't help but to also wonder: What else is it that they're trying to hide?"
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 1:00pm
#22
How competitive?..........(per Big Brother)
"I know my sister's too modest so, if anyone really would like to know how competitive, I'd suggest looking at the following link for an example:
Central Park Triathlon 2002 was the event and you don't have to look too far down the list of results (which include male and female).
Cheers.
Basil (Ashmore!)
(who hasn't been able to keep up with his little sister for a long time now).
"
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 1:30pm
#23
Melanie and Basil! And I never put it together. . . . .
As someone who knows Melanie (through triathlon and the New York Flyers), and knows Basil only through the bulletin and message board, I only just now find out that you are brother and sister! Cool. Yes indeed Melanie is competitive and you go girl, kick ass in St. Croix and I want to hear all about it as it is on my list of to-do-races. Oh, and good luck with the bike! (I would try not to spend a lot of money in a hurry here.)
Fri, 04/16/2004 - 6:55am
#24
Not sure about about kicking booty!
..thanks Judith! And yes, I'm Basil's little sister! I'm not sure about kicking ass in St. Croix -- think I've decided to just rent a low-end bike down there and truly make the hills and humidity of the island a challenge! But I'll tell you all about it when I get back!
Mel
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 9:29am
#25
"Melanie, shop carefully. I recall that when ""Bikes Direct"" opened for business, it was pointed out that they carried ""Motobecane"" bikes at $X off MSRP, but that Bikes Direct and Motobecane were really the same people and the MSRP was artificially set.
Also, take into account any shipping (including back if you're dissatisfied) and local setup, if needed."
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 9:37am
#26
Thanks Isaac!
Thanks Isaac! Yes, I just read another posting which talked about BikesDirect owning Motobecane...hmmm...
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 9:42am
#27
"Melanie, it used to be more ""obvious."" A look at BD & MOTO's ""who-is"" records (www.netsol.com) showed nearly identical information. Today they're smarter. Windsor, BD and MOTO have different names & addresses."
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 7:29pm
#28
Consider Used
I would seriously consider a low mileage used bike. Therein, is your best value. Did it once myself. I paid $1750 for a Dura-Ace equiped Cannodale with the then popular Spinergy Rev-X wheels. Only 500 or so miles on it. The bike new at that time was over $4000. This bike is now on its third owner, still looking great!
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 10:32am
#29
Windsor Kennet?
Melanie,
Here's another option if you want to go with mail-order: Colorado Cyclist is selling a complete Litespeed bike (aluminum frame) with Shimano 105 for $1100, and the same frame with Ultegra and Mavic Cosmos wheels for $1300.
You say that you can't wait for deals to appear on eBay. You don't have to wait; there are most likely many deals on bikes in your size on eBay right now. You just have to know how to look for them. Also, a new bike is not necessarily better than a used one. A high-quality used bike that has been treated well by its previous owner is usually the best deal.
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 12:22pm
#30
Oooh sweet!
...nice - thank you! (Somehow I missed that deal on Colorado Cyclist when I was on there...)
I didn't find that much in Ebay in my size (I'm a 52cm) but I am continually checking there also....
Thanks!
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 12:29pm
#31
another source
www.gvhbikes.com
Impeccable reputation.
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 1:52pm
#32
Yes....
...thanks - I checked with them too!
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 1:25pm
#33
Someone was offering a 52cm Cannondale frame here a few days ago: http://www.nycc.org/mb/Thread.aspx?B=1&T=1923&TP=3
Wed, 04/14/2004 - 1:34pm
#34
Yes, April 11, a 2001 Cannondale (nm)
Tue, 04/13/2004 - 5:04pm
#35
Pro-mail order
I have already referred Melanie to my fave NYC shop, Bicycle Habitat, suggesting she check out their 2003 inventory in case they have anything in her size. Habo was also the source for my fabulous Specialized Langster track bike. Owner Charlie McCorkell, who follows the Carmichael system for sizing (I know nothing about this), is giving me a smaller frame. I have always gotten excellent service and repair work from Habitat.
But I can also speak on behalf of mail order too. On the knowledgeable recommendation of Greg Cohen, I got my Fuji Team from Colorado Cyclist four years ago--an 18-pound aluminum road bike w/Ultegra components for under $1,400, delivered almost fully built. Its prestige and paint job may want for glamour, but the bike itself has been an excellent value and gotten me much further into biking than my hybrid ever would have done. I certainly didn't (and still don't) have two grand or more to invest in a bike.
Colorado Cyclist went out of its way to make me happy, including changing certain parts after I'd already ridden the bike. I later bought a new wheelset from them and have gotten excellent and fast service.
I don't think CC carries Fuji anymore, and I have heard people say disparaging things about its house brand, Douglas. But if they have something to suit Melanie's purpose, I would recommend doing business with them. (Though on this short notice, she might want to request overnight delivery!)
