"So that I am not accused of changing the topic of a specific thread yet again, I am starting a new thread with a response to a point that was made in the ""Broken Record"" thread.
There is nothing faultier than calling an argument unscientific without providing any scientific data to counter it.
Peter Hochstein stated the following:
Hey guys, in the course of all these passionate arguments about technology, we seem to be getting just a trifle unscientific
I'm not going to go into all the specious arguments I've seen on the board, but the one that amazes me says that membership increased after we went on active.com and therefore, by implication, that it's active.com that's driving membership.
He counters that the increase in membership was due to the efforts of SIG recruiters.
2001 was the first year we used Active.com for on-line registration. For that year, NYCC membership income increased more than $11,000 over the previous year. That translates to somewhere around 500 members or, an increase of more than 30%. It is highly unlikely that such an increase in membership was attributable to the SIG's even if every participant in that year were a new member which is also doubtful. In fact there are no other conditions during that time period that could have contributed to the increase in membership aside from the ease of joining that Active's service provides.
As to: What I can't for the life of me imagine is somebody thinking, ""I was never interested in joining a cycle club before, but oh wow, now that I can join using Active.com how can I possibly resist?""
This is yet another tiresome straw man argument that no one would seriously consider to begin with. What is more likely is that with our super-duper cool website, the club is more visible to those looking for such an organizaion and the benifits of joining are explained in an immediate and attractive way that was just not possible previous to the web. Add to that the instant gratification of joining with the click of a mouse and a few key strokes and you've got the largest one year membership increase in club history.
I know there are those who are reluctant to use the web in this way but the growth of e-commerce in general shows the vast majority of consumers prefer the convenience of on-line purchasing. As a victim of identity fraud, I can attest that it's no fun at all. But after a few phone calls it was all but forgotten. I'm back on the web, buying up a storm and loving it.
"
Science Vs. Supposition
"Well, Tom, I think you've synthesized the two arguments into one. That supercool website indeed helped (I never said it didn't), and one of the things about it that helped were the sig offerings it featured. Certainly, the convenience of signing up at the website also helped, although I personally wouldn't sign up that way. What I was arguing about was the $5 discount being the cause of the signups.
I've been in the direct marketing business for quite some time, and I can tell you that offering $5 off on something people don't want to buy will get you nothing. (""I don't want a bag of fresh horse manure. What? You'll give me $5 off? Great, I'll take it!"")
Figure it this way: You come across the websites of two almost-identical clubs. One offers you a $5 saving for signing up on the web rather than by mail. The other doesn't offer you a $5 saving, but provides three SIGS where you can learn to improve your skills, overcome your fears of moving up to the next level, go greater distances, go faster, go more safely, learn great navigational and riding tricks, and so on, all while meeting amiable people who share your interests.
Which do you go for? The SIGS or the five buck saving?
I agree with you that many consumers prefer the convenience of shopping via the web. My only point was caveat emptor. Anyone who sends out financial information such as a personal credit card number on the web does so at his or her peril.
I am glad you were able to get your identity theft problem solved with a couple of phone calls, but believe me, there are people who've spent scores of hellish hours over many years trying to get their names cleared without suceeding. If you don't believe me, I hope you'll have the guts to put your money where your mouth is: Please clearly and truthfully state your address, Social Security number and Master or VISA number in your next post and then watch what happens."
"First, let's agree on the facts. The only discount available right now for membership is for current members that renew on-line. They pay $21. New members and off-line renewals are $24. There is no $5 discount for anything and there is no difference in price for new members whether they sign up on-line or on paper. Further, the change in dues did not take effect until 2002 so it is not relevant to the discussion of the increase in membership between 2000 and 2001. My point, which you did not even attempt to refute, is that the increase in membership far outstripped the number of SIG participants even if each SIG participant joined the club as a result of increased SIG recruitment. Other than the introduction of on-line registration, I can think of no other variables that account for the increase.
As to identity theft, I know I got off easy. Having your SS# stolen is bad news. This would not apply in most on-line purchasing situations however since most e-commerce sites do not require the consumer to give their SS#. If I run across one that does, I click ""No Thank You."" And there is a very big difference between posting one's credit card number in a public forum like this as opposed to entering it in a secure e-commerce site. Your challenge is yet another entry in the litany of red herrings that have appeared here in recent days."
"What I was arguing about was the $5 discount being the cause of the signups.
You were arguing with yourself no less after sniper-ing away cavil remarks based on a false premise and twisting my words.
Which do you go for? The SIGS or the five buck saving?
Both as this bicycle club offers both. No one has taken issue with the online discount for signing up. Contrast that with a discussion about offering a discount for an online bulletin.
The nycc offers both of these items as two options - paper and electronic. Changing one offer, the electronic bulletin $, while keeping the longstanding ""control"" offer, paper, a constant and measuring response is the cornerstone of a direct marketer's work. Comparing two clubs' offerings for discussion here is pure folly. Likewise for not (or pretending not) identify the difference between a correlation, causation and a casual observation. (FWIW, I work in Direct Marketing and have an extensive scientific/statistical analysis background.)
Anyone who sends out financial information such as a personal credit card number on the web does so at his or her peril.
It's really not much of a peril. Your liability is $50 or $75. Credit card companies will often overlook that fee when you dispute the charge and reissuing a new card # is easy enough.
Since Active.com does not ask for your Social Security #, identify theft is not anymore of a risk than that check you issue containing your bank account #."
i have a challenge for you, peter. let's post nude photos of ourselves so we can see how quickly they circulate on the 'net. my point? what point...do we need a point in this thread?
;) <-- winkie face
don
Peter Hochstein said:
I am glad you were able to get your identity theft problem solved with a couple of phone calls, but believe me, there are people who've spent scores of hellish hours over many years trying to get their names cleared without suceeding. If you don't believe me, I hope you'll have the guts to put your money where your mouth is: Please clearly and truthfully state your address, Social Security number and Master or VISA number in your next post and then watch what happens.
If the site of this skinny body wearing spandex, funny shoes and something resembling a beer cooler on my head is not bad enough, an image of me completely bare would be horrific! I would not want to be responsible for causing (hysterical) blindness. On the other hand, Halloween is just a month away....
So, where do we find your nude photos, Don? At donmontalvo.com?
...there is a link to nudie shots of yours truly on my webpage...but you have to submit your name, credit card and social security number to access the photos.
;)
don
In watching this thread and the previous thread, I have seen all sorts of incorrect info tossed around about club finances, i.e. what the bulletin costs, what the x-mas party costs and on and on. I've stayed out the discussion although I was the treasurer for four of the last five years. As I am not the current treasurer, I deffered to the current treasurer. I'm glad that the club president has provided the income numbers which support the actual benifit to the club of Active.com.
Similiarly, providing actual historic numbers would also show that the bulletin typically accounts for about 2/3 of the club's expenses and that the X-mas Party,Century and Jerseys are all self-supporting club efforts. These numbers have been available to all in the Bulletin and to the best of my knowledge, few club members ever actually read them. It seems that no one remembers them.
If what Ira has said is indeed fact or even close to it - that the printed bulletin accounts for about 2/3 of the club's expenses - why is there even a discussion about continuing it. OMG - What a huge waste of money! The website and PDF Bulletin are beautifully done and should be fully used. I don't understand all the bickering about having a bulletin in hand as opposed to online. Tell the Luddites to get with the program. Where is Etoain when you need him.
...no bulletin or Etoain?
"...when they're sitting on the can before going on a club ride?
actually, the real answer is just around the corner:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/09/24/epaper.new.reut/index.html
don"
Very cool. Actually NYCC could sew an epaper screen onto the jerseys and/or shorts they sell and people could read each other's butts whilst doing the club ride;-) The club could then actually make money selling the bulletin since it would be embedded in the clothing.
hmmm...come to think of it, if this technology can be embedded into lycra, the club can sell ad space as well. of course with all the weight i gained in the past few years, i'd have to ask for a bigger percentage kickback from the board.
;)
don
Please scroll down all the postings above, before they become too many to count.
Tom Laskey says there is no $5 discount, and that therefore my argument is invalid.
Peter O'Reilly, to whom I was responding on a different thread before Tom moved the argument over here, says there is indeed a $5 discount, and that furthermore I am a...well, examine his language yourself.
All this is becoming too much. I've got better things to do.
Tom, I can't even trust you for your ride leader rewards program, so why should I trust you for facts or anything else? Last year I ran approximately 35 rides and got nothing, nothing, nothing from the frequent leaders program, not even a water bottle. This year, I led, I think, approximately 20, before I got PO-ed enough to stop leading them at all.
Next year I'm leading none. I'll take the vituperation as my reward, in advance, thank you very much. Have a nice day.
Peter H.:
First, according to my records, you received a ride leader vest sometime prior to 2001, the first year I was responsible for giving out ride leader awards. Up until this year, the policy had been that ride leaders can only earn a vest for the first year in which they lead 12 or more rides, therefore, you were not eligible for another vest for last year's rides. This year however, because we have a budget surplus that no one can agree where it came from, we will be offering ride leaders an award every year they lead 12 or more rides. Check the September bulletin for the new policy. Check any bulletin prior to 2003 for the former policy.
And you can believe me about membership prices. The $3.00 discount only applies to current members who renew with their member # by mid-March. A notice to that effect has appeared in the January - March bulletins for the last 2 years.
I sincerely hope you reconsider your decision not to lead rides next year. You've become a fixture in the pantheon of C-Ride leaders. Your presence would be greatly missed.
let's buy a mailing machine!
Could it be that a large chunk of the increase in membership since the online signup started is caused by people renewing their memberships instead of letting them expire, due to the ease of online signups as opposed to writing checks and mailing forms?
Do we know if we lost fewer members since Active.com or gained more new ones or both?
