"During my mid-afternoon commute to work I was ticketed in the bike lane on CPW at 84th St. No traffic around, no pedestrians, only a six foot plus policeman who stepped out of his car into the path of my bicycle and grabbed the handlebars as I swerved to avoid him. Saying nothing until he wrangled me and my bicycle to a stop, he then pointed to the traffic light and asked, ""What color is that?"" The answer, of course, was ""Red.""
He was an &** but his partner, officer #2, pulled me aside and told me to caution cyclists that a campaign is underway to crack down on cyclists breaking the law. I did run a red light. The fine is $130.
While officer #2 wrote out my ticket, officer #1 stopped three more cyclists, one for riding on the sidewalk and two for running the light. Cyclists who are stopped should, at a minimum, be civil, officer #2 suggested. If not, they may be fined for not having a bell on their bicycle, etc. etc. etc. Initially, policeman #1 threatened me with resisting arrest."
CAUTION NYPD has begun campaign ticketing cyclists
kill as many people as possible and get away without even a citation. just do it in an automobile and feign remorse.
oh, and make sure you're sober.
The Bike Ticket Blitz is an annual event. Happens every Spring. Or after any high profile incident (ie: UWS guy killed on the sidewalk by delivery boy a while back).
Happy Bike Month from the NYPD.
Solution: Don't cruise through red lights in the presence of cops.
This is especially true in bike lanes and other popular bike routes as officers are specifically assigned there just for the purpose of ticketing cyclists. As you found out...
"And if the cyclist going thru the light was hit by a motorist would you say ""there's never a cop around when you need one""?
Bottom line...observe the law and you go ticket-free for life. And live to a ripe old age in the process."
""" he then pointed to the traffic light and asked, ""What color is that?"" The answer, of course, was ""Red.""
""I did run a red light. The fine is $130.""
And it goes on your drivers license.
What exactly is your complaint? Do you really believe you did nothing wrong?
You renegade riders give all cyclists a bad name. How will we ever get any respect with antics like this?
""Chainwheel""
"
BTW, how is it that you don't have anything better to do at 1am on a Friday night than lurk on this MB?
Not so shy after all, are we?
Great idea I hope they give out more tickets to cyclist. Of course I break more rules then anyone here. But they got to catch me first.
Lesson learned...stay away from bike lanes!
Are you willing to be interviewed, briefly, for a story I'm doing for WNYC, New York Public Radio, about being ticketed?
Please call ASAP: 212-669-3364
The cop did his job and you should get a ticket. As much as a car is a moving weapon, albeit a 3000 +- pound one, a bicycle is a moving weapon as well. My wife was struck by a bicyclist 5 years ago and was a mess for about 6 months. He hit and ran, but the bottom line was that he was not obeying the law and he sped off.
I have no problem, even as an avid ridder, going after someone that comes close to a pedestrian and for some strange reason I get pleasure out of seeing a downed messenger. I know that this feeling is horrible and wrong, but I have been hit by too many messengers to shake a fist at and they just don't care. It is about time the cops cracked down on cyclists running red lights or riding on the sidewalk or going the wrong way down a one way street.
As someone that weighs about 200 pounds, if I am doing 20-30mph and hit a pedestrian or a car for that matter, the damage would be fairly extensive to both myself and the object that I hit, unless it was an immovable object. It's time for riders to understand that they don't own the road and to start acting with a little respect and responsibility. I will say that if anyone comes near my family, I will own another bike very cheaply and the rider will be walking home!
Most New Yorkers have been narrowly missed by cyclists running lights or going down one way streets. Who does not feel the outrage. But to place running all red lights in the same catagory as unsafe is fatuous. Your example of your wife being hit by a messenger is one extreme. But, taking the opposite end, waiting for a light to change at 6 AM on a Sunday is absurd. And for those of us who find ourselves in the middle ground we might actually be able to assess the situation and break the law yet keep the peace. Laws are written by wise men for fools.
"""But, taking the opposite end, waiting for a light to change at 6 AM on a Sunday is absurd.""
Waiting a few seconds for a light to change is not a big inconvenience. Is it absurd for a car to wait at a red light at 6 AM? Should everyone be free to decide for themselves when it's appropriate to obey the law?
The real problem with your line of thinking is that once you run that first red light, it becomes easier to run the next one. Soon it becomes a habit. On Long Island recently I saw a ""serious"" cyclist run a red light and cross a six-lane divided highway. I'm sure he felt that was a reasonable thing to do.
Hey, if you feel compelled to do your own thing, at least be willing to accept the consequences, and don't act like you're being persecuted when you get caught.
I think it's a sad commentary when bike clubs and experienced cyclists are unwilling to set a good example and try to present cycling in a positive light.
""Chainwheel""
"
"I am willing to bet anything that as a pedestrian ""chainwheel"" doesn't wait for every red light to turn to green before crossing the street. Why, because no one does.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't look before crossing, and the same goes for cyclists.
Riding safe is always important and reckless cyclists should be punished, but handing out tickets for the equivalent of jaywalking adds to contempt for the law not respect
Bicycles are not the same as cars, if you can't understand that see below...
Common sense is what is in short supply in our world
"
"""Bicycles are not the same as cars""
Getting bicycles recognized as vehicles (with the same rights and responsibilities as other vehicles) in all 50 states was a major victory for cycling advocates. Yet I see that the ""bikes are toys"" mentality is still with us.
Please explain why it's impractical to stop for a red light.
""Chainwheel"""
"A few years back I wrote a rebuttal letter in MetroSports magazine, in response to someone insisting that bikes should always stop at red lights and stop signs. Here's the gist of it.
I used to stop for all red lights. One day I stopped for a red light. There was no cross traffic, I did not ""have"" to stop. As the light was turning yellow for the cross street, a driver in a little green sports car floored it and cut a tight left turn. He cut the wheel so tight that he was heading straight for me. His passenger saw me, grabbed the wheel and steered around me. After that I decided not to be a sitting duck. I'm safer when I'm rolling than when I'm standing there with a bike between my legs and cleats on my feet.
Cyclists ARE different. Our eyes are higher up than most drivers, especially if we stand on the pedals, so we can see over obstacles. We don't have an 8 foot hood in front of us that has to go into an intersection before we can see if there's cross traffic. We can turn sideways in a split second. We don't weigh several tons. Odds are if anyone gets hurt by our traffic transgressions, it's us. That's what makes us different.
I've been rear-ended while stopped at a red light in my car by a driver who was day-dreaming. It was a small dent. If I was on my bike it would have been worse. That's another way we're different."
"Incredible! You're actually arguing that it's safer to run a red light than to stop for it. I suspect that FAR more cyclists get nailed every year by blowing red lights than by stopping for them. Oh sure, you're going to tell me you have the technique and ""skills"" for doing it.
Hey, if you can rationalize it to yourself, fine. Why not stop wearing a seat belt while driving? A few people may get hurt each year because of wearing one.
""Chainwheel"""
"""Waiting a few seconds for a light to change is not a big inconvenience. Is it absurd for a car to wait at a red light at 6 AM? Should everyone be free to decide for themselves when it's appropriate to obey the law?
The real problem with your line of thinking is that once you run that first red light, it becomes easier to run the next one. Soon it becomes a habit. On Long Island recently I saw a ""serious"" cyclist run a red light and cross a six-lane divided highway. I'm sure he felt that was a reasonable thing to do.""
You don't give people much credit for using common sense. And your logic of one thing leading to another paints a rather grim view of life....Don't have a beer beacuse you might become an alcoholic. Somehow you have made this a moral issue. It is not.
"
"""You don't give people much credit for using common sense.""
Based on what I regularly see some cyclists doing, it's very hard to give them credit for using common sense. I'll remind you of the guy I saw sprinting across a six lane highway against a red light. And the fellow in this thread who claims it's safer to run a light than to stop for it.
""And your logic of one thing leading to another paints a rather grim view of life....""
You started off talking about running a red light at 6 AM on Sunday morning, and later said, ""If you agree that 6AM on a Sunday can be safe, then lunch hour can possibly be safe if you are aware."" So it appears that one thing DOES lead to another. I suspect the guy crossing the six lane highway started with less challenging exploits.
Bike clubs give a lot of lip service to safety and following the ""rules of the road."" But in reality, most club riders seem to find it too inconvenient to wait a few seconds for a light to change. Yet if a motorist did the same thing, they'd be up in arms.
Another person in this thread pledged to never run a light when a police car is around. What a profile in courage!
We are all too familiar with the shenanigans of bike messengers and other scofflaws. Club riders should be the ones setting a good example. Is it too much to ask folks to wait a few seconds for a light to turn green?
Traffic rules are based on predictablility. If everyone follows the rules, things usually work out fine. It's when motorists/cyclists/pedestrians rationalize that they don't have to follow a particular rule that things get dicey.
Let's hear from the leadership. Where does NYCC stand on this issue?
""Chainwheel""
"
This is pretty funny. I have never seen a group that is more vulnerable to accident in this city, outside of pedestrians, defend the right to run red lights and stop signs. The orignal post states that this took place during the lunch hour, so why this has turned into a debate about waiting for a light at 6 am is beyond me. I seriously doubt that any cops will bother you at 6 am. I truly beleive that if you focus on the facts, this debate will be very one sided.
Ironically, about 20 years ago I was in a very serious car accident where I was hit by a drunk driver and sent through the windshield of my car. I sustained very serious injuries and lost a year of my life to therapy. This, of course, was before there were any seat belt laws and I was not wearing one. I was told, that had I been wearing one at the time of the accident I would have been killed because the force of the accident would have snapped my neck and spine. Does this mean that I don't use one now because not wearing one saved my life? No... the chances of it doing more good certainly outway the possiblity of a seatbelt killing me.
To keep this in the right perspective, I collect sportscars and the fact that they can go in excess of 160MPH does not give me the right to do so on a public road. If some guy in a Yugo can go 120, should he do so and is it safe? We all have limitations and not all riders, or drivers for that matter, are created equal. Not all bicycles are up to the task either, so making a blanket statment is iresponsible.
Laws might not always be right, but since (based on this conversation) most people aren't that bright... there is obviously a necessity to maintain order and have rules. The bottom line is, you can seriously hurt someone by running a red light. I do understand the point that during off hours, without any traffic, it makes no sense to wait. I don't, however, beleive we are talking about that. My statement stands and if you think I won't remove you from your saddle while riding if you hit me, you are sadly mistaken. All it takes is one careless move or a pothole to get you off your line and that's it.
Thanks...
This is not about riding in an unsafe manner. None of us advocate that. Your wife was hit by a cyclist and I was almost killed by a delivery rider going the wrong way last week. But give us some credit for assessing if a situation is safe or not. It is not about 6AM on a Sunday. Traffic conditions are a continuim. If you agree that 6AM on a Sunday can be safe then lunch hour can possibly be safe if you are aware. Most of my close calls on a bike occured not because I violated the law but when someone else did something dumb. I once got a ticket for going through a red light at 6th and 47th at 3PM when no traffic was moving, I slowed to assess it, went through and got a ticket. The reason that the traffic had stopped all around was that there was a bike cop right behind me whom I did not see. I asked him if he thought I was riding unsafely. He said he did not think I was. But it was 96 degrees and he was grossly overweight and having a bad day. When I left him he went on to ticket a delivery guy and I left to do hill repeats on Alpine Hill. But he also gave me a ticket for no bell or horn.
Thanks Hank... you just rationalized why it's OK for me to stop at a red light in my car and go through it if there is no traffic. It really isn't unsafe if nobody is around and if nobody is there to rat me out, then we should all do it.
Great rationalization! It's only illegal if you get caught!
All The Best,
Marc
Marc, If you are equating riding a bicycle to driving a car than we can assume that you equate being a pedestrian to driving a car or riding a bicycle. So are you the one person in New York City who waits for lights to turn green when the intersection is clear to cross the street? Or are you a hypocrite. You are correct in that if everybody waits at red lights 100% of the time accident rates will decrease. But you also assume that all bike messengers are scum. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but do I detect a little english (spin) in your replies? Perhaps you are being driven by something other than logic?
Hank,
I didn't realise that being English invalidated one's opinions. Thanks for putting myself and Marc straight on this.
"Hank,
I think this whole thing is very humorous. I do not think that all messengers are scum and the statement about ""English"" is just silly or maybe prejudiced. I am a native New Yorker, period end of story. Born and raised here! The equation or similarities I am drawing relate to safety and justification of laws. Just because you think it is unfair does not negate the fact that it is a law and there are penalties if you chose to brake it. You said, ""If you are equating riding a bicycle to driving a car than we can assume that you equate being a pedestrian to driving a car or riding a bicycle"". Why would you think that? A bicycle is, essentially, a moving vehicle and can easily hit speeds in excess of 30MPH. A pedestrian cannot and does not fit into this catagory. You presume and assume many things which are not implied.
I live off Central Park, so I basically have nothing to worry about when I ride other than being in the park. In all honesty, I do find myself siding with ""John Z"" with regard to his comments and statements. Again, however, this is not a discussion about 6am. It was written about a situation occurring in the middle of the day.
Thanks,
Marc"
english --n. The spin given to a ball by striking it on one side, as in pool, or releasing it with a sharp twist, as with bowling.
":: and the statement about ""English"" is just
:: silly or maybe prejudiced
...I think the ""English"" statement was a reference to the ""spin"" you put on a ball when you hit it off center.
Don (2001 TriState Tour Champ)"
Hi Don,
I kind of suspected as much, but the way this thing has been blown out of proportion and taken out of context, I thought it only appropriate to have some fun.
Thanks,
Marc
Marc, the point of 6 AM was to illustrate that there are times when we all agree that intersections are traffic-free. This situation can actually occur throughout the day. If I am responsible for my actions whether on a bike, driving a car or walking in the street. And I have the skills to assess traffic situations (afterall I have made it this far living and cycling in city traffic for many years.) And I have assessed the intersection to be safe. And I am a civil person who believes and practices the golden rule. - This means I slow down enough to be able to read all outstanding variables and am able to stop or bail before the intersection and not cut anybody off. Why would I waste my precious time on earth standing at a red light just so I have to deal with any traffic which might come into play by the time the light changes? Don't I owe it to my loved ones to do the safest thing while I have the opportunity?
And Chainring, before you type out some sarcastic remark do us all a favor and look into the mirror and see if you like what you see first.
Hank,
I have to agree with you, but the point of this conversation was pretty much a prime time issue and instance. You make mention of assessing a situation, which is also correct, but how many times have there been cars that run red lights hitting pedestrians, or the cop chase where multiple cars are in accidents as a result. These may be isolated by nature of the event, but when they happen the intersections, in many cases appear to be clear. Careless motorists, along with the fact that cell phones are readily used while driving, are a major distraction.
I am all for you taking what you appear to think is a safe risk, until something happens and then post to this forum how some idiot ran the light and you never saw him or her coming.
I think the point of this conversation has nothing to do with 6am. You brought it up to make a point, but the point is not acceptable due to the fact that there is no correlation between 6am and lunchtime. The ticket was not given at the time you brought up. These are incongruous to say the least. It has to do with 84th & CPW during lunch time. It is never empty in that area and in fact, there are always school buses and children up there because of the museum. I think the original author of this forum fibbed a bit to make us feel sympathy for his cause. The bottom line is that if you are going to do something stupid during prime-time, you get what you deserve.
Thanks,
Marc
"""And Chainring, before you type out some sarcastic remark do us all a favor and look into the mirror and see if you like what you see first.""
Well, my hair is thinning a bit, but otherwise I like what I see.
Throughout this thread you've hinted that I'm being dishonest. You've suggested that no cyclist could possibly stop for all red lights, especially when no cross traffic is visible. I can tell you that I do.
Why is that so unbelievable? Maybe the difference is that I consider my bike a vehicle, not a toy. I would no more run a light on my bike than when driving any other vehicle. I don't see this as a moral issue.
In the course of a 3-4 hour ride, I might spend a couple of minutes stopped at red lights (and at most of them I wouldn't have the option of bolting if I wanted).
Why are you so impatient? Is your life so exciting that you can't ""waste"" even a few seconds? What do you do when your plane flight is delayed or you get stuck in a traffic jam?
Road cycling these days is pretty strange. It's a Walter Mitty world each weekend. The middle-aged weekend warriors show up wearing goofy sunglasses and team jerseys to which they have no affiliation. On the road, everyone practices their best grimace. This is serious stuff, not fun. Stop for a red light? Not cool -- gotta keep moving.
""Chainwheel""
"
"I generally avoid responding to anything that hints of ""politics."" I prefer to keep my postings focused on bicycle riding and related topics. Unfortunately, too little space on this message board is filled with an enthusiastic discussion of bicycling related topics, and too much space on this message board is filled emotion, ranting and politics. Against my better judgement, I feel compelled to add to this thread.
I do not stop at every light or stop sign, nor do I feel cyclists should stop at every light or stop sign. In fact, several states allow cyclists to yield instead of stop. I think this is sensible and should be applied nationwide. Bicycles are different from motor vehicles and in most states traffic laws have been appropriately amended when applicable to bicycles, including waiving of minimum speed restrictions and allowing riding on shoulders. I doubt advocacy will change New York state law regarding this issue, so I must live with the law and must be prepared to endure to consequences should I be caught violating the law. I will use my judgement as to when it is appropriate to come to a full stop and when it is not, and I will pay the fine if caught.
Before any of sanctimonious among us replies to this posting, let me save you some typing. No matter what you write, no matter who you claim to be, nor what your riding experience has been, I absolutely will not believe that you won't do the same under certain circumstances. I do not believe, and never will believe, that there is a cyclist in this club, certainly not those posting to this thread, who would stop for a remote light at 6AM on a Sunday morning, or other similar conditions. One thing that should stop is the absurdly hypocritical flaming."
"John,
You may avoid politics, others may not. Someone (sorry, don't recall who) said that ""the personal is political."" If bikes are given the right to ""yield"" instead of stop, that's political. If a state decides that it's had enough of ""cycling anarchy"" and slaps a licensing law on cyclists (with minimum age and insurance, like cars) and there goes the next generation of bikers, and the business that make money off of them, that's political. If motorists harrass and endanger cyclists and the authorities tell you to go ride in the park, that's political.
I know that cars and cyclists do make rationalizations for their personal adaptations of traffic law. I believe that it's a worthy topic of discussion. What I've seen here is a very civilized and thoughtful thread, not a flame war. Your not liking the arguments does not warrant shutting down of this thread or going to a ""moderated list.""
IMHO, everytime a cyclist applies his/her own rule, s/he gives up the ""moral high ground."" Sure, some states allow your to yield instead of stop. Please name them, so that we can follow the law in those states. Want to see that law passed in NY or NJ? Then put up some money and lobby some politicians.
And for the record, I stop and wait for red lights. In Manhattan, along St. Nick's, in Brooklyn, in Englewood Cliffs, and at 7 in the morning on Sundays.
Isaac"
I stand by what I wrote and will write no more.
"""In fact, several states allow cyclists to yield instead of stop.""
Idaho is the only state I am aware of that allows a cyclist to proceed through a red light AFTER STOPPING and yielding. Can you name another?
And I suspect traffic conditions in Idaho are just a bit different than in New York City
""Chainwheel"""
Marc you must be funning us! While I have little knowledge of sportcars (e.g. the Corvette debut in 1953); I didn't think any street run Yugo could go faster than 60 miles an hour, certainly not 120 mph. Perhaps you meant Kilometers per hour? The Yugo was probably the Most Pathetic Auto ever introduced to the US. Only the the East German Traubant (Traubi) could steal the MPA dishonour.
And if there are any surviving Yugos, I doubt that any could hang on to train of Hank S, John Z, and yourself, especially on an upgrade.
Chris,
It was being used purely as an example, not an actual assessment of the speed or reliability of a Yugo. The comparison was made to illustrate a point, nothing more.
Thanks,
Marc
