Standard vs. compact crankset for A-SIG, Club rides, etc

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edeuser
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Hi All,

I just purchased a new bike and unfortunately had to purchase it with a standard (53/39) crankset, since I was not able to locate any retailers with the bike in stock in a compact (50/34) crankset.  I am coming from a very heavy (23 lb) bike with a triple (52/39/30) and since the new bike is substantially lighter I haven’t noticed any problems with the higher gearing yet. 

However I will be doing the A-19 SIG this spring and am concerned the bike might be geared too high for the type of riding and climbing that the group will be doing in the SIG.  I definitely don’t want to be a burden on the group because I showed up with the wrong gearing.  Any advice on whether to swap the crankset for a compact prior to the beginning of the SIG?  Thanks!

BHafkin
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Yes, swap it

I know nothing about you or the way you ride, but I think if you're concerned enough to consider it you should probably swap it. The first few rides are relatively flat so you have a few weeks to decide, but the later rides have a lot of climbing with some steep sections. I think most A-19 and A-Classic SIG leaders and participants are riding at least a compact, some a triple.

Hopefully others will chime in here.

BRoss
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+1 ...go for the compact

Just last week there was an informal poll taken of the 2011 A-Classic SIG leaders, asking what size chainrings they use. Out of approximately 12 leaders who responded (all bona-fide badass cyclists, for whatever that's worth) the response was something like 5-to-1 in favor of compact 34/50 setups.

Not only will your fellow SIG participants thank you, but your knees will thank you also.

Lucia
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The ratio was actually more

The ratio was actually more like 2 to 1.  9 compacts, 4 standards and 1 triple.   But still... we definitely favor compacts.  That being said, there are really a lot of variables, so you may want to see how it goes first and get some leader feedback on your riding before making the switch.

Also, the shop wouldn't swap out the standard for a compact for you?!  That's odd...  

NLawson
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A-Classic on a Compact.

I help lead the Classic and run a compact crankset as well.  That being said, it also depends on what cassette you are using, how heavy you are, what your riding style is etc.  I find in group rides like the SIG where we often climb as a group while seated, you would be at too low of a cadence.

I expect there are participants and leaders in both programs using a standard crankset and manage to get by.

As betsy said, the first few weeks are relatively flat.  You could give it a try and then make up your mind.

 

EDIT:   I should say that when I was a participant i had a 50/34compact and a 11-23 cassette, which is the same as a standard with a 26t cog.  I was 195lbs...  The steep stuff or long climbs were difficult.   I now have a 11-26 cassette with a compact and am much happier.

Rmarcus
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All is not lost.

Sadly the LBS sold you what they had and perhaps should have guided you to a similar model WITH the compact.

As Lucia stated at the very least they should have offered to swap the crankset out, of course there may be some dollars involved.

I am one of the minority who rides a Standard Double but I use a 12-27 in the rear and by the way it is 9 speed.I am far from the thin half of the group but then again not the heaviest brut on a bike.

I would bet that your cassette is a 25, maybe a 26 if you're lucky..

My plan of attack, based on that you did not ride the bike yet or very low mileage is:

 

a) Go back to the shop and see if they will help you NOW as the parts are still unused or very little mileage. Thios will save you the hassle later when you want to ride.

b) See "a" above for the pure economics of it.

Later on, say 60 days from now you will have to spend money on:

1) A New compact crankset

2) New cassette, the one you have on the bike most likely will be a bit off in the gearing..  

3) Possiblly a new chain.

4) Pay for the labor to do the above

5) The old parts will get you very little in re-sale or trade.

 

The only reason I have not switched to a compact is nothing more than I get by with what I have. Tthere are times it would make life much much easier.For what it's worth I have a touring/commuter with a triple and on those few times I use the granny I feel silly but am so grateful for it.

In anycase I would suggest you try to resolve this now. Then again you may be one of those people that doesn't require a compact today, but you will tommorow.

Robert

 

edeuser
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 Thanks Robert for the well

 

Thanks Robert for the well thought out response.  With regard to your and Lucia's point that the shop should have been willing to swap the crankset, I completely agree.  I actually discussed this issue with 2 different shops that carried the same bike, and was completely surprised that neither was willing to swap to a compact!  The best they offered was the option to trade in the existing crank for a significantly downgraded model in a compact, because they did not have the original in stock in 50/34. 

This was a fully conscious decision on my part.  Given that the bike was an end-of-model-year closeout, and I saved around $1000 off of the retail price of the bike, I decided it was still worth it knowing I ran the risk of needing a new crank and/or cassette down the road.  So in short, I’m ok with the expense, mainly just trying to determine if it’s a needed expense.

Out of curiosity, why the possibility of needing a new chain?  Would this be due to chain length issues if both chainrings and cassette are changed? 

NLawson
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chain

going to a 50/34 you will likely shorten the chain a bit.  Adding a 28t cassette to your current setup, you might need to a longer chain. 

If shimano, you will need a new pin at the very least.

Cmoore
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The cassette will make a huge difference

As Nick started to allude to, cassettes have changed a great deal in the last few years, with the largest cog in the back frequently counting 28t (where 25t used to be the max for stock setup). If the former describes your new setup, you may find that a standard crankset can more than handle the challenges you will face together. 

Either way, you will notice a much greater ability to face those hills later in the season, the sooner you start doing hill repeats. I suggest now. ;]

I rode a cyclocross (48/38) crankset (with a 12-25 cassette) for last year's A Classic, and found it did alright for me. I do wish I hadn't waited until the good weather of the 4th week to start getting my hills in during the week, though!

Those early/pre-season workouts can really pay off quickly. Especially the hill workouts. Might as well embrace the pain now. :)

 

edeuser
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Thanks everyone for the

Thanks everyone for the speedy replies!  Sounds like lower gearing, whether cassette or crankset, is in order.

Right now i'm running an 11-26 cassette.  I have considered going up to 12-28 (the largest my rear derailleur can handle) but figured this might not be quite enough.  From what Cmoore is saying though maybe it's worth giving it a shot before shelling out for a new crank.  Now that I do the math it seems 53/39 and 12-28 is like losing the largest 1 or 2 cogs on my triple (52/39/30 and 11-25)...not exactly the end of the world.

 

 

DHudes
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Look to mountain

Shimano XTR is a 10-speed mountain cassette with 34T big cog that is compatible with Ultegra etc. brifters. You have to check the compatibility chart to see what rear derailleur works with that. 

 

Garcarola
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and one more...

I fell in love with my compact (after riding a triple) within days. The recommendation here is go compact... you'll appreciate it on the hills; all of them!

 

George Arcarola

Rmarcus
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That's only cause your "Old & Cranky " George

wink

Garcarola
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too right

too right Robert... (sigh)

SMachimbarrena
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I did the A19 last year with

I did the A19 last year with a 53/39 12-26, so it's doable, but I was standing many of the hills. This year I'm going back to 50-34 11-25.

If you purchase a compact and sell your brand new 53/39 (ebay) you shouldn't be out more than $50-75.

MBruckner
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+1

53/39 was fine for everything. Anytime I needed to stand was usually when we were already spreading out across the face of a hill and so it was not an issue.

abrowning
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Why suffer more than necesary

Why suffer more than necesary on hills?  I have a compact with 11-28 gearing.

Adrienne

NWeissman
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Gearing is Destiny

I encourage the OP to use an online calculator and do the math:

http://www.unwiredaviation.com/biking/

[Not working in Safari.  OK in Firefox]

The point of having any gears at all is to allow a cyclist to maintain optimum cadence (say 85 RPM) under varying conditions: flats-climbs-descents; head/tailwinds-paceline; smooth-rough-slippery road surface.  Otherwise, we could all by with single speeds.

In that regard, the two operative characteristics of any gear range is "wide" and "close":

"wide" refers to the lowest and highest gears that enable us to spin up steep hills yet pedal with resistance on 30+ mph descents.  Ie, the "extremes".

Yet "close" is what we care about in the vast majority of situations: moderate grades, headwinds, close proximity pacelines, etc.   Otherwise, we could all have three-speeds with just a low-middle-high.

The key is to first determine the level of rider; A-B-C, as well as the types of rides; SIG, club rides, touring, etc.  

In that context, review the three most common setups sold on contemporary road bikes:

(1) A 53/39 "standard" road double is common to most racing bikes of the last few decades.  With an 11-23 cassette, you get excellent nuance ("close") in a 21-32 mph range in the 53T; and an 11-18 mph climbing range in the 39T.  But to stay at your target cadence, you're going to have to attack every hill of every ride or limit yourself to flat or rolling terrain.  Ie, the "tail is wagging the dog".

[Remember you can't use all ten rear cogs with each chainring.  To avoid "cross chaining", you want to limit to the nearest 6-7 cogs with each ring.]

(2) The more modern 50/36 "compact" double, paired with a 12-26 cassette, works out well for the "A-Classic" rider: 18-28 mph cruising range in the 50T ring and a 9-16 mph climbing range in the 36T.  

- But compact doubles get tricky for B16-A19 rider.  Their cruising speed fall s into the gap of 50T and the 36T.  So their rowing back and forth between 50T-36T chainrings trying to find a comfort zone that just frankly isn't there.  I see this a LOT on the B-SIG.  Further, trying to maintain 9 mph on rides with extended climbing will be less than pleasureable.

- Counterintuitively, the 50-36T is an acceptable (though not ideal) choice for the "C" rider.  For relatively flat routes, they can just stay in the climbing range afforded by the 36T.  But there's not much to get them up Walnut let alone a succession of "Dead Presidents".

(3) A 50/40/30 "road" triple with a 12-25 cassette works out to a 14-20 mph cruising range in the middle 40T; an 8-12 mph climbing range in the 30T; and an additional cruising range of 20-28 mph in the 50T.  In this setup, a B16-A19 can spend 90% of the day in the middle ring, just by tweaking the rear cogs.  And for rides wth extended climbing, it's cheap and easy to swap out the 30T for a 24-26T "granny".

Now there are modifications and compromises possible within all three setups, (adding a modified "mountain" cassette to a road or compact double, etc.) but they involve some expense (long cage derailleurs) and a willingness to tradeoff one virtue for another ("wide" vs. "close").  

But to the extent you know what kind of rider you are-hope-to-be and the kind of rides you plan to do, you can save $$$ later by getting it right at the outset.

Finally, if everything above just makes your head hurt.  Go for the triple.  Inherently, it's the optimum between "close" and "wide"; it doesn't add to the cost on initial purchase; it's the least expensive to modify; doesn't really add much weight; If properly setup shouldn't provide any more mechanical difficulties than a two-ring set up; one can always choose to remove or "block off" a redundant ring; and a knowledgeable rider who scouts the terrain can preset alternate ratios, wheelsets.  

"Their legs, like giant levers, will power onwards for sixty hours; their muscles will grind up the kilometers; their broad chests will heave with the effort of the struggle; their hands will clench onto their handlebars; with their eyes they will observe each other ferociously; their backs will bend foward in unison for barbaric breakaways; their stomachs will fight against hunger; their brains against sleep. And at night a peasant waiting for them by a deserted road will see four demons passing by, and the noise of their desperate panting will freeze his heart and fill it with terror." - Henri Desgrange

 

 

 

TKeynes
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now I can see !

thanks Neile, a seminal piece

MGrinthal
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I used to ride a 50/34 and

I used to ride a 50/34 and 11-28 cassette and had the problem Neile describes - at 18-20 miles/hr I was always cross-chaining.  I switched the 34 for a 38 small ring and it solved the problem.  I did the A19 and part of the A Classic on that setup.

DLoayza
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Have you done any of the

Have you done any of the favorite climbs on the new bike yet? River Road, Bradley, the Presidents? If so, how did it feel?